Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff Photography Industry News 
Thread started 08 Dec 2012 (Saturday) 04:28
Search threadPrev/next
POLL: "Price Projections of New Canon 7D mkII"
<$1500
33
5.8%
$1500
25
4.4%
$1600
27
4.7%
$1700
39
6.9%
$1800
87
15.3%
$1900
59
10.4%
$2000
109
19.2%
$2100
40
7%
$2200
48
8.4%
$2300
24
4.2%
$2400
15
2.6%
$2500
15
2.6%
>$2500
48
8.4%

569 voters, 569 votes given (1 choice only choices can be voted per member)). VOTING IS FOR MEMBERS ONLY.
BROWSE ALL POLLS
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

7D mkII. What do you think the specs and price will be?

 
this thread is locked
pwm2
"Sorry for being a noob"
Avatar
8,626 posts
Likes: 3
Joined May 2007
Location: Sweden
     
Jul 06, 2014 06:06 |  #391

kcbrown wrote in post #17013743 (external link)
I can understand being behind for perhaps a year or two as a result of allocating R&D money unevenly like that, but inasmuch as we're talking about the development of the sensor and it apparently has seen no real progress to speak of for five years, why should we conclude anything other than that Canon has essentially abandoned the still photography market for at least a five year period of time?

Not really.

Canon has worked on the banding issues, since we did complain about banding in the 5D2.

But let's say they did wait some years before starting to do something about more dynamic range - remember that there wasn't any big competition for high DR when the 5D2 or 7D was released - then lead times really are important. So most probably, Canon did not spend any real time working on the next big step in dynamic range for quite some time after the 5D2 and 7D was released. While at the same time we know they have been working with sensors of way past 100 MP.

Sensors like the following wasn't worked on because Canon has abandoned the stills market:
http://www.canon.com/n​ews/2010/aug24e.html (external link)

But when talking about larger sensor changes, i.e. not just minor tweaks, you really do have lead times in multiple ways here. On one hand, each spin of a sensor takes time to produce and evaluate because you don't just press "print" on the design and then pick up the new sensor. It takes quite some time to create the masks and then produce a couple of wafers of the prototype - and similar is seen when microprocessors are designed and then require the silicon to be revised multiple times.

And if needing to replace the factory equipment, you require an even larger time scale. It isn't unreasonable with 9-18 months - assuming that we just talk about replacing equipment and not needing to build a new fab.

And it can take quite some time time calibrate a fab if breaking ground with some new process. And that isn't unlikely, since Canon isn't just making their own sensors. They are also developing, producing and selling some of the equipment used by the factories to make sensors.

The "lead time" argument quite obviously is invalid in and of itself to explain the available observations, precisely because lead time and rate of progress are quite different (lead time is the networking equivalent of lag, while rate of progress is the networking equivalent of throughput, and neither affects the other except when you're talking about reliable transport with overly limited buffering resources).

You can only mark lead time and rate of progress independent if you assume many small, concurrent, projects running, and do not measure the time from start to end of each individual project but just looks at the emitted rsults. But that is a very unlikely scenario except for the smaller refinements you can see in 5D3 or 6D. Look at a specific project, and that specific project will have a quite significant lead time from started until the market sees a released product. That lead time will be significant even for smaller refinements. And it will be extremely significant if the project requires Canon to go for a fully new process, assuming they can't just ship off and produce at any existing fab that has a compatible process already available.

If Canon has/had indeed stopped funding sensor development for a period of years as the evidence suggests (and as you are clearly arguing here), then it follows that they have fallen behind in sensor technology and will remain there until they can somehow accelerate their rate of sensor development well beyond the rate of development of their competitors.

Canon most certainly hasn't stopped funding sensor development. But they have missed the ball when it comes to the work with large DR. Most probably because they didn't expect the competitors to be as competitive as they have been. Just that when the Exmor sensor had already proven itself to take market shares and create lots of rave, it's a bit late for Canon management to push the button to try to develop a competing sensor. If Canon did plan maybe 75MP sensors with the current DR and the customers did expect 40MP with several stops better DR, then that's a big oops. But an oops that takes a serious time to do something about. In the end, it's a question of guessing/predicting exactly what will be the most profitable route to go. And companies regularly guesses wrong, since they don't have any crystal balls. Small companies may die from it. Larger companies often has enough agility and economic strength to be able to get away with just a black eye and some ugly bumps in their economic graphs.

Now, how likely do you think it is that Canon will accelerate their sensor development rate in that manner? I, frankly, don't think it's likely at all.

I find it extremely unlikely that Canon will not have been running full-speed on developing sensor technology with more DR for quite some while. To not do so when the evidence of the competition is available would mean incompetence. There is a big difference between failing the crystal ball predictions and failing to spot actual, ongoing, competition.

As such, the end conclusion winds up being the same in spite of the arguments you've been putting forth (and, indeed, because of the reasoning you've described above): Canon is now behind in sensor tech, and is likely to remain behind unless their competitors have gotten lazy and slowed/stopped their development efforts in such a way that Canon can catch up.

Yes, the conclusion is that Canon is behind (at least in what has been released) when it comes to sensors for high-end cameras for stills. Not because they haven't been doing any R&D, but because their R&D hasn't been aimed in the direction we customers have wanted/expected. Or maybe Canon R&D has been run in the correct direction, but have suffered unexpected delays forcing Canon to ship cameras with just minor improvements while waiting for a next-generation sensor to be finally ready.

In the end, we can just speculate on what technology Canon has - we can only see what Canon has released. And in that aspect, Canon is behind.

But at the same time, Canon has managed to make quite a lot of money during these years. So if a new sensor can show up within a reasonable time frame, it will be hard to say that Canon has made the wrong decisions from a business perspective.

Fortunately for us, you don't need anything like the latest in sensor technology in order to produce stunning imagery.

No - except that the sensor technology do affect the boundaries for what we can capture. And the Exmor sensor do allow for greater boundaries, giving the owners a significant advantage in some fields of photography.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
Speedlite 420EZ | Speedlite 580EX | EF 1.4x II | EF 2x II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kfreels
Goldmember
Avatar
4,297 posts
Likes: 11
Joined Aug 2010
Location: Princeton, IN
     
Jul 07, 2014 08:41 |  #392

Kind of funny how some people seem to think that innovation is predictable and simply a matter of wanting to do something. Like if you decide one day "I want to make a better sensor" then X number of years you'll have something. We have no idea how many blind alleys and such they've been down searching for the next great leap in sensor technology. They can't just copy Sony's sensor. They can't just stop selling cameras while they work on it. And while working on it, they can't just tell everyone what they're doing. If you watch Canon patents you'll see that they are constantly putting forth new patents and such in sensor design. When they get to making the sensors, I'm sure they run into all sorts of problems turning the ideas into reality. Soon enough though they'll come up with something that leaps them ahead of the Sony. Then all the Sony people will be griping about where their response is. And they may take years to come up with the next leap ahead.


I am serious....and don't call me Shirley.
Canon 7D and a bunch of other stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,734 posts
Likes: 4067
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Jul 07, 2014 09:15 |  #393

kfreels wrote in post #17016304 (external link)
Kind of funny how some people seem to think that innovation is predictable and simply a matter of wanting to do something. Like if you decide one day "I want to make a better sensor" then X number of years you'll have something. We have no idea how many blind alleys and such they've been down searching for the next great leap in sensor technology. They can't just copy Sony's sensor. They can't just stop selling cameras while they work on it. And while working on it, they can't just tell everyone what they're doing. If you watch Canon patents you'll see that they are constantly putting forth new patents and such in sensor design. When they get to making the sensors, I'm sure they run into all sorts of problems turning the ideas into reality. Soon enough though they'll come up with something that leaps them ahead of the Sony. Then all the Sony people will be griping about where their response is. And they may take years to come up with the next leap ahead.

You are right on some levels but there are others such as Canon continuing to use a fabrication technology that was cutting edge back in the early 1990s when the rest of the pack has moved on to a much newer technology allowing them to introduce improvements that is impossible with Canon's antiquated setup. It's sort of telling that they have not invest in the basic infrastructure to move forward but continues to milk their old school tech. I think this more than lack of innovation is what's biting them in the arse.


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RTPVid
Goldmember
3,365 posts
Likes: 3
Joined Aug 2010
Location: MN
     
Jul 07, 2014 10:29 |  #394

gjl711 wrote in post #17016381 (external link)
You are right on some levels but there are others such as Canon continuing to use a fabrication technology that was cutting edge back in the early 1990s when the rest of the pack has moved on to a much newer technology allowing them to introduce improvements that is impossible with Canon's antiquated setup. It's sort of telling that they have not invest in the basic infrastructure to move forward but continues to milk their old school tech. I think this more than lack of innovation is what's biting them in the arse.

No point investing billions in a new fab until you have something to make with it. Semiconductor fab tech is not leading edge technology for sensors. Canon can buy it when they need it (or contract to use someone else's line)?


Tom

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
h14nha
Goldmember
Avatar
2,095 posts
Gallery: 11 photos
Likes: 179
Joined Nov 2008
Location: South Wales, UK
     
Jul 07, 2014 17:04 |  #395

kfreels wrote in post #17016304 (external link)
Kind of funny how some people seem to think that innovation is predictable and simply a matter of wanting to do something. Like if you decide one day "I want to make a better sensor" then X number of years you'll have something. We have no idea how many blind alleys and such they've been down searching for the next great leap in sensor technology. They can't just copy Sony's sensor. They can't just stop selling cameras while they work on it. And while working on it, they can't just tell everyone what they're doing. If you watch Canon patents you'll see that they are constantly putting forth new patents and such in sensor design. When they get to making the sensors, I'm sure they run into all sorts of problems turning the ideas into reality. Soon enough though they'll come up with something that leaps them ahead of the Sony. Then all the Sony people will be griping about where their response is. And they may take years to come up with the next leap ahead.

The only problem with your post ( which I agree with, by the way ) is that Sony aren't exactly standing still either. Fuji and Sigma have innovative sensors too.


Ian
There's no fool like an old skool fool :D
myflickr (external link)
My Gear - 7d, / 16-35mm F4 / 70-200 2.8 II / 100-400 / 300mm 2.8 / 500/4 :D XT-1 Graphite 18/35/56

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kfreels
Goldmember
Avatar
4,297 posts
Likes: 11
Joined Aug 2010
Location: Princeton, IN
     
Jul 07, 2014 22:39 |  #396

RTPVid wrote in post #17016537 (external link)
No point investing billions in a new fab until you have something to make with it. Semiconductor fab tech is not leading edge technology for sensors. Canon can buy it when they need it (or contract to use someone else's line)?

That's my take on it as well. The things that we want - namely more DR and less noise at higher ISOs - don't seem to me to be something that just arises naturally by simply changing the fab tech. But maybe I'm missing something.

And no, Sony isn't sitting still. But they haven't come up with anything radically different in the last couple years from the sensor side. Since then, their improvements have been no more incremental than what Canon's been doing. And dual-pixel CMOS has a lot more potential going forward than I think a lot of people have given them credit for.


I am serious....and don't call me Shirley.
Canon 7D and a bunch of other stuff

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CRCchemist
Senior Member
961 posts
Likes: 19
Joined Apr 2014
     
Jul 08, 2014 03:27 |  #397

andrikos wrote in post #15340779 (external link)
So, it looks like the new 7D mkII will be released/announced around Feb next year and since this is the top APS-C body Canon makes, there's a lot of speculation as to the direction it will take in its second re-incarnation.

The first 7D is famously an "engineer's plaything" where Canon engineers were given carte blanche to create the best APS-C machine they could given a certain budget/technology and they did. The body has been (and still is) a runaway success.

It is our hope that the second version will build on this tradition and offer the top of the line APS-C body that will be targeted towards shooting action and birders.

I created a poll for you to say what the price will be and discuss the specs you think will be on the new body.

Here are mine:
$1,700
24MP
2 stop high ISO improvement
Better DR
10fps
20-30 AF points with improved sensitivity (-2EV center would be nice)
GPS + Wifi. Let's not have the 6D have all the fun.
Dual Card Slots: 1 CF + 1 SD
Same body with similarly great ergonomics (i.e. 5DIII style) - Note: top plate is PLASTIC Mr. Rtpvid ;)

Why did this guy say the camera body was looking like it was going to be released around February of 2013???




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
hollis_f
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
10,649 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 85
Joined Jul 2007
Location: Sussex, UK
     
Jul 08, 2014 03:52 |  #398

CRCchemist wrote in post #17018221 (external link)
Why did this guy say the camera body was looking like it was going to be released around February of 2013???

Because they believed the rumours current at the time. Certain sites (well, a certain site) attracts readers (and advertising revenue) by posting some rumours repetitively - with a new predicted launch date each time.

With such a lousy track record I'm still amazed how many people take their pronouncements as the gospel truth. Some have even been known to sell their gear purely because a new version is rumoured.


Frank Hollis - Retired mass spectroscopist
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll complain about the withdrawal of his free fish entitlement.
Gear Website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
David ­ Arbogast
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
12,619 posts
Gallery: 37 photos
Likes: 11006
Joined Aug 2010
Location: AL | GA Stateline
     
Jul 08, 2014 07:31 |  #399

CRCchemist wrote in post #17018221 (external link)
Why did this guy say the camera body was looking like it was going to be released around February of 2013???

FYI: This is in the "Rumors" forum. Stuff said here (about new gear releases) is nothing but a guess fueled by either wishful or doubtful thinking. :)


David | Flickr (external link)
Sony: α7R II | Sony: 35GM, 12-24GM | Sigma Art: 35 F1.2, 105 Macro | Zeiss Batis: 85, 135 | Zeiss Loxia: 21, 35, 85

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
andrikos
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Avatar
1,905 posts
Likes: 9
Joined Sep 2008
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
     
Jul 08, 2014 07:40 |  #400

David Arbogast wrote in post #17018430 (external link)
FYI: This is in the "Rumors" forum. Stuff said here (about new gear releases) is nothing but a guess fueled by either wishful or doubtful thinking. :)

I have it on good authority that the 7DII may or may not be released soon, or not at all. Either way. Maybe. Stay tuned ;)


Think new Canon lenses are overpriced? Lots (and lots) of data will set you free!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ptcanon3ti
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,057 posts
Gallery: 613 photos
Best ofs: 16
Likes: 11724
Joined Sep 2012
Location: NJ
     
Jul 08, 2014 08:23 |  #401

lololol...this thread is pure gold!


Paul
https://www.flickr.com​/photos/petshots/ (external link)
Body - Nikon D750
Lenses - Nikon 20 f1.8 / Nikon 16-35 f4 / Sigma 105 OS Macro / Sigma 24-105 f4 Art / Tamron 70-200 2.8 Di VC / Sigma 150-600 "S"

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
rjharris
Goldmember
Avatar
1,227 posts
Gallery: 73 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1326
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Near Dallas
     
Jul 08, 2014 08:47 |  #402

I think it's going to happen. If for anything else I think they've got some new innovations they want to test out before they release them to full frame models. Personally I think the 7D II will be 22 mp, maybe one frame faster and 2 stops better in the ISO department with a mildly improved autofocus. I'd be a happy camper then. This is pretty much what they did in 09 when they bought it out the first time IIRC.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ptcanon3ti
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
9,057 posts
Gallery: 613 photos
Best ofs: 16
Likes: 11724
Joined Sep 2012
Location: NJ
     
Jul 08, 2014 08:55 |  #403

rjharris wrote in post #17018579 (external link)
I think it's going to happen. If for anything else I think they've got some new innovations they want to test out before they release them to full frame models. Personally I think the 7D II will be 22 mp, maybe one frame faster and 2 stops better in the ISO department with a mildly improved autofocus. I'd be a happy camper then. This is pretty much what they did in 09 when they bought it out the first time IIRC.

after 5 years of "development time" :rolleyes: these would be very minimal improvements


Paul
https://www.flickr.com​/photos/petshots/ (external link)
Body - Nikon D750
Lenses - Nikon 20 f1.8 / Nikon 16-35 f4 / Sigma 105 OS Macro / Sigma 24-105 f4 Art / Tamron 70-200 2.8 Di VC / Sigma 150-600 "S"

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
rjharris
Goldmember
Avatar
1,227 posts
Gallery: 73 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1326
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Near Dallas
     
Jul 08, 2014 08:58 |  #404

ptcanon3ti wrote in post #17018592 (external link)
after 5 years of "development time" :rolleyes: these would be very minimal improvements

I agree, but I'm not one to ask for miracles.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
gjl711
Wait.. you can't unkill your own kill.
Avatar
57,734 posts
Likes: 4067
Joined Aug 2006
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
     
Jul 08, 2014 09:21 |  #405

After 5 years and after what the rest of the market is doing, I would think that is needs to be a whole lot more than an incremental upgrade.


Not sure why, but call me JJ.
I used to hate math but then I realised decimals have a point.
.
::Flickr:: (external link)
::Gear::

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

109,859 views & 0 likes for this thread, 119 members have posted to it.
7D mkII. What do you think the specs and price will be?
FORUMS Community Talk, Chatter & Stuff Photography Industry News 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is IoDaLi Photography
1724 guests, 132 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.