60D, auto ISO and speedlight is a nightmare!!

MakisM1 wrote in post #15421032
I can't even conceive variable AutoISO and EC and FEC...

Can't conceive of it, or can't conceive of Canon doing it?

Why would it be any different than a manual ISO setting once the camera has determined the ISO?

I don't see what people find so complicated about this. This is all extremely simple math, doable in microseconds on the camera's CPU.

Canon just doesn't give a damn.

In most of the situations where I would like to use flash, the priorities are:

1) aperture. In fact, that is almost always my first priority. we're talking optics here; DOF, diffraction, sweet spots.

2) + 3) (tied) flash/ambient balance, and shutter speed - the ambient can be a little more blurred than the flash exposure, but not by much. Too fast and HSS cuts into flash power, and in the slower end of the HSS, the flash has no action-stopping power.

4) ISO

John Sheehy wrote in post #15421538
You seem to be assuming that the pre-flash intensity varies based on the ISO setting. Can you substantiate that? This could be measured with an external flash meter, metering the pre-flash.

... I think you're giving Canon too much credit; I doubt that this would be hard to do; they just refuse to do it, because they like to play god and spoonfeed us minor improvements, which they can get away with with so many complacent, non-progressive users.

Can you substantiate your second paragraph? Assigning the labels "complacent" and "non-progressive" to the rest of us (whom you don't know) sounds... well,... not conducive to furthering the sharing of ideas...

For what's worth, the non-flash part of the AutoISO issue has been discussed a number of times (in M-mode you lack EC in AutoISO). You can try to patch the problem in P mode with AutoISO and EC, but arguably, if you can do it in P, you should be able to do it in M.

AutoISO in a flash implementation is a whole different kettle of fish. Canon decided that if you are in a semi-automatic mode (Av, Tv and yes, P) the flash will act as a fill light. NOT as a main light. I'm OK with this. It could have a 'Fill-ETTL' mode. Or you could play with FEC.

Once you want ETTL for a main light (which is the proper ETTL mode) then forget the ambient. You can have settings in M that will record ambient as well as flash and ETTL will meter the mix, but AutoISO?

AutoISO for what? The ambient? We are using the flash as main. For the flash? I think if the flash can't illuminate the scene you get a warning (and you better change your ISO).

My understanding is that the OP worked up a scenario where the ambient was supposed to be underexposed by 1/3 stop and the flash (as main) to be overexposed by 1 2/3 stops. Because he had an exposure variation of up to 3 stops from the video lights!...

And he has a problem because this was not happening setting the ISO to Auto... I would not try to work this situation with this plan.

..and certainly I would not blame Canon...

BigAL007:
Thanks for that clarification. I do see that there is no way to use EC, while using auto-ISO. I agree that some people would find such a setting useful. My main point about this remains: If you are capable of shooting in Manual mode, and you understand EC, you should have no problems working around this extremely minor deficiency in available settings. And with all of today's modern conveniences, work-arounds should not be necessary.

With that out of the way, I concede that each of us uses our equipment as we see fit. If you, or anyone else, or perhaps lots of people, want such a setting, it seems that it would be almost trivial for Canon, or any other manufacturer, to include it on the dial. If some wanted to use it, it would be available. If such a setting were available, I'd probably make use of it. If I didn't, no harm done. There are several settings/options on my cameras that I may never use. I have 60D and don't use the flippy-screen thing, or video. I have lots of settings on my mode dial; when I'm not in Av, I'm shooting manual mode. My wife can use the camera in P or GreenBox. I think I've taken less than 10 shots, in my life, in Tv mode. I find the ICON modes pointless; others use them with great success.

Back in the days of manual film cameras, some touted using the film-speed dial for EC. While it did work, I found it cumbersome and sometimes forgot to reset it after that shot. I found it much easier to obtain the centered meter, then simply adjust shutter speed or aperture to get the amount of EC I wanted. Now that cameras are as automatic as they are, having one more choice on the dial would just make for more happy customers.

EDIT: I just read MakisM1's comments about using Manual mode, auto-ISO and EC with flash. I agree. Adding flash to the mix is a step too far. The OP's problem was not the unavailability of a setting. His problem was not understanding the equipment he was implementing, or how to achieve his desired results. Like I said above, the camera is no more responsible for the bad shots than it is the good ones.

If I want a fill light then I shoot Av with a flash; if I want primary light I shoot "M" and select the exposure parameters (including ISO) for the ambient and let E-TTL do the exposure of the subject.

I see it as having two options depending on what I want to do.....

tickerguy wrote in post #15421924
If I want a fill light then I shoot Av with a flash; if I want primary light I shoot "M" and select the exposure parameters (including ISO) for the ambient and let E-TTL do the exposure of the subject.

I see it as having two options depending on what I want to do.....

I don't see it that way at all. You can do fill or main flash in both modes. You do main by safely setting the EC or manual exposure sufficiently low that even if ambient varies, it is still always much weaker than the flash. You do fill in both by having the flash at a fill ratio. Av is prone to problems with the shutter speed going into the HSS zone, where you lose flash power, even when used as main flash. What I need when I am shooting wildlife in mixed light is to set my shutter speed to a certain speed (1/250 is fine for slower animals and birds), and 1/400 to 1/500 for busier creatures, and I need the lens (100-400) at the best aperture for sharpness. Then, I need for the flash to be at -1 to -1.66. None of the workarounds given can do this all the time, without a fuss. Auto-ISO with flash CAN give what I, and many other people need. Floating ISO in M mode with fill flash would be a trouble-free method of achieving such goals. Work-arounds can be somewhat useful, but they should not be necessary.

John Sheehy wrote in post #15423129
I don't see it that way at all. You can do fill or main flash in both modes. You do main by safely setting the EC or manual exposure sufficiently low that even if ambient varies, it is still always much weaker than the flash. You do fill in both by having the flash at a fill ratio. Av is prone to problems with the shutter speed going into the HSS zone, where you lose flash power, even when used as main flash. What I need when I am shooting wildlife in mixed light is to set my shutter speed to a certain speed (1/250 is fine for slower animals and birds), and 1/400 to 1/500 for busier creatures, and I need the lens (100-400) at the best aperture for sharpness. Then, I need for the flash to be at -1 to -1.66. None of the workarounds given can do this all the time, without a fuss. Auto-ISO with flash CAN give what I, and many other people need. Floating ISO in M mode with fill flash would be a trouble-free method of achieving such goals. Work-arounds can be somewhat useful, but they should not be necessary.

If I understand you correctly, what you want is Av mode. Set the aperture you need. Set ISO to give you a fast enough shutter speed. It sounds like you need minimum shutter speed setting, at most. And that can be accomplished by setting your ISO high enough. That takes care of things, except for flash.

Manually adjust your flash, or use FEC, to get the flash output you want. Flash is independent of ambient, so no problems there. HSS loses range gradually as you increase shutter speed. If you are shooting at 1/1000 or slower, you'll never notice it.

At ISO 1600, f/5.6 and 1/1000 my 550EX reports a useable range of 40 feet. There is a lot of lee-way left there to stop down, raise ISO and adjust shutter speed. The 580EX II, or 600EX would give you a small boost in power. If you are adjusting flash output downward, you'll get even more range. I've shot small critters with a 100-400L at 400mm. If you can't get withing 40 feet, you aren't getting much of a shot anyway. At 1/250 and 3200 you can go way past 60 feet.

Granted, auto-ISO in with FLASH would solve the problem. It just doesn't seem like much of a problem. It also seems trivial for Canon to include such capabilities. Flash is already independent of ambient on Canon bodies, unless you are in P or GreenBox. Manually selecting Av and Tv, letting the camera select ISO, is already how auto-ISO works best. Since flash is independent of ambient, it seems like an oversight on Canon's part fix ISO at 400 with flash, while in auto-ISO.

Lots of older bodies had auto-ISO fixed at 400 while in manual mode. That ridiculous limitation has been lifted. Maybe there is hope for some progress here.

TSchrief wrote in post #15420206
I read several comments in this thread about Canon bodies not being able to use EC in Manual mode. If I put my camera in manual mode (fixed ISO) and select an aperture, then adjust shutter speed to make the meter read -1, or whatever, haven't I just made and exposure compensation? It is not automatic, but it is exposure compensation.

I am probably less experienced than most of the posters here, but reading this made me feel better because it seemed obvious to me that to get the EC, you would just turn the dial on one of your 3 settings until the meter in the viewfinder showed the EC that you were looking for.

It's a shame that this thread seems to have deviated a bit from the OP issue, but it's been very educational. I think I'm going to read it again just to make sure I haven't missed any pertinent points. I've just upgraded from a 350D to a 60D and have been trying to brush up on what I've forgotten and learn the new features that I didn't have before.

I find it amazing that there are so many "photographers" complaining about all kinds of things when it is obvious that they have no idea what they are doing and they don't know their equipment.......

Quite sad.....

When used correctly the Canon Flash system produces great, consistent results, as many photographers have proved over the years.......

I use manual, pick my shutter speed, aperture, might boost ISO if I am shooting subject further away, set any FEC I might want and fire away, Any shots that are not 100% normally turns out to be my fault and not the camera system's, but many "users" have a problem accepting that they did something wrong

Rudix wrote in post #15774633
I find it amazing that there are so many "photographers" complaining about all kinds of things when it is obvious that they have no idea what they are doing and they don't know their equipment.......

Quite sad.....

When used correctly the Canon Flash system produces great, consistent results, as many photographers have proved over the years.......

I use manual, pick my shutter speed, aperture, might boost ISO if I am shooting subject further away, set any FEC I might want and fire away, Any shots that are not 100% normally turns out to be my fault and not the camera system's, but many "users" have a problem accepting that they did something wrong

How true. If what you want, is for your camera to do what YOU want it to do, PUT IT IN MANUAL MODE, FIX AN ISO, USE MANUAL FLASH. Oh, no! That would require actually knowing what you are doing, instead of relying on software and the engineer who designed your camera 3 years ago to be able to foresee exactly what you have in mind, at any particular moment.

I think ETTL-II is very good. When it fails, I shoot manual so I can control things. Stop whining. Forty years ago it took me a few days to figure out how to do basic flash photography. A few sessions of practice and anyone with two functioning brain cells can do the calculations in your head. Forty years ago, I didn't have a digital TV on the back of my camera to show me if I did it right or not. Sure I messed some up. BUT (and this is HUGE) I knew what I did, knew it was wrong, and so I could correct it. Putting your camera in an automatic mode and complaining when it doesn't do what you expected is idiocy.

TSchrief wrote in post #15774696
How true. If what you want, is for your camera to do what YOU want it to do, PUT IT IN MANUAL MODE, FIX AN ISO, USE MANUAL FLASH. Oh, no! That would require actually knowing what you are doing, instead of relying on software and the engineer who designed your camera 3 years ago to be able to foresee exactly what you have in mind, at any particular moment.

I think ETTL-II is very good. When it fails, I shoot manual so I can control things. Stop whining. Forty years ago it took me a few days to figure out how to do basic flash photography. A few sessions of practice and anyone with two functioning brain cells can do the calculations in your head. Forty years ago, I didn't have a digital TV on the back of my camera to show me if I did it right or not. Sure I messed some up. BUT (and this is HUGE) I knew what I did, knew it was wrong, and so I could correct it. Putting your camera in an automatic mode and complaining when it doesn't do what you expected is idiocy.

Where is the "Like" button when you need it

Well said sir!

I think john is right. Remove the flash aspect from the thread, he basically wants a TAV mode where he can control shutter AND aperture, and let ISO auto adjust to suit his needs. Hell, I've wanted that feature for many years, and the 1Dx and 5d3 can do it to an extent. Who the hell wants to adjust ISO everytime the aperture changes? At least give me an extra wheel for ISO.

I was hoping magic lantern would save me the trouble, but no go either.

boerewors wrote in post #15414327
think about this. Youre using a 70-200 lens with flash. to avoid subject movement and hand shake i dont want to go below 1/80 sec, and shutter sync gives until 1/250 (less on other cameras). Thats less than 2 stops tolerance when using AV mode with a speedlight. So you think the camera is programmed to expose for ambience properly? ISO is not being used in the equation other that being fixed at 400. Now you have a vidoegrapher shine his light and youre over exposed. Compensate for his light then when he is not around, you get slow shutter speeds that blur everything.

The answer would seem to be wait until the official 'tog has finished and wandered away. If that means missing his set pieces, then so be it.

To the OP

My guess is that you do not have your camera set correctly to use auto iSO to is best benefit. Check your manual and figure out how to set up your camera. 5D3 has safety shift that you can set to ISO that solves a lot of your problems and you can set minimum shutter speeds for AV use and when you dont want the camera to get below a certain shutter speed.

Set these settings correctly and auto IsO becomes a great tool to use.

umphotography wrote in post #15774881
To the OP

My guess is that you do not have your camera set correctly to use auto iSO to is best benefit. Check your manual and figure out how to set up your camera. 5D3 has safety shift that you can set to ISO that solves a lot of your problems and you can set minimum shutter speeds for AV use and when you dont want the camera to get below a certain shutter speed.

Set these settings correctly and auto IsO becomes a great tool to use.

Thats better advice than anyone else has given me. the 60D does not have a minimum shutter speed except for being between 1/60 - 1/250 when using a flash, BUT it will merely underexpose if it needs to go below 1/60 because the aperture is already wide open for indoor shoots. This is why i never used that feature . I did have safety shift set for aperture a long time ago and forgot about it. When i checked my settings just now it appears to been switched off. I have no idea how that could have happened and this could have been my issue on that day. Thanks for bringing it up. My guess to solve the issue next time when i deal with video lights causing huge differences in exposure between shots is to use av mode with a higher ISO that gives maximum flash sync speed for normal ambience exposures, flash sync speeds locked between 1/60 and 1/250. If the camera needs more exposure it has 2 stops of shutter speed to drop, if it needs less exposure then the safety shift will close the aperture even the camera is in AV mode. Does that sound correct? The 60D has no such thing as auto ISO when a flash is attached. Auto ISO means ISO400 period.
i use flash for the sake of fill light and to create a pleasing looking bounced light that creates soft shadows. I do not like to use flash as the main exposure as some people have suggested that the flash is ''exposing'' my image so i should not worry about using creative auto modes. I usually always use manual mode with on camera ettl bounce flash, but in this particular day i had a powerfull video light making huge exposure differences and when you combine that with a wedding, you dont have any second chances to try again. This is why i went AV mode. To all those people who only care to critisize instead of offering usefull advice, you are not helping out your fellow fotography community and just being a troll in the forums.

umphotography wrote in post #15774881
To the OP

My guess is that you do not have your camera set correctly to use auto iSO to is best benefit. Check your manual and figure out how to set up your camera. 5D3 has safety shift that you can set to ISO that solves a lot of your problems and you can set minimum shutter speeds for AV use and when you dont want the camera to get below a certain shutter speed.

Set these settings correctly and auto IsO becomes a great tool to use.

Only the 6D, 5D3, and 1Dx have ISO-based Exposure Safety Shift, and they don't work in M mode. I've tried everything to get or simulate auto-ISO with flash enabled, in M mode on my 6D, and nothing works. You would think that if one were willing to settle for the fastest normal flash sync, in the custom function for shutter speed in Av mode, that this would function as M except that there is only one shutter speed, but no, as soon as you enable auto-ISO and flash, it does not do what you expect, even though you are technically in Av mode, and the Exposure Safety Shift is set to ISO.

The available range of shutter speed limits is useless for shooting active subjects.

Canon goes out of their way to screw people who want auxiliary flash fill with auto-ISO, especially in M mode. They are sadists.