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Thread started 06 Jan 2013 (Sunday) 10:32
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Clearing a DCIM folder in the camera?

 
umphotography
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Jan 06, 2013 11:55 |  #16

apersson850 wrote in post #15452041 (external link)
No, it doesn't, if you by old school means formatting all the time.
Then old school deletes the files and folder structure I want to keep on my cards. Formatting would require me to re-create that data on the card each time, an unnecessary process that's likely to be forgotten or introduce errors which don't need to happen.

The only disadvantage deleting all images instead of formatting has is that it's slower. But I choose to do it when I'm not in any hurry, so that's not much of an issue.

So just because the formatting way works for your way of working, Mike, it doesn't mean it works for everybody. It depends upon what you want to accomplish. For the OP, as well as for me, it's clearly inferior to using the delete all images command.


OK.. question because what you are talking about is greek to me. Are you creating folders on a single card ?? then putting images on the card to those assigned folders ?? Have not heard about this. I have always done it Old school for the past 8 yrs so didnt know you could create a set of folders on a card....The advantage would be ??? V/s the old way ??? v/s cameras with dual cards ?? Trying to see why one would consider doing what you do here.


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Jan 06, 2013 12:01 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #17

I don't shoot professionally, so I usually end up having different sorts of events and stuff on the same card. To make it easier to access the images in an orderly manner, I've created folders on the card for such stuff I return to shooting in a regular manner. Like orienteering, other sports, portraits, things related to my work, parties and general stuff.

By selecting for example the work folder, when taking pictures that are related to my work (which doesn't have anything with photography to do per see, but sometimes images are needed inside documents of various kind), I know where I have them. Thus they are easy to retrieve when I want to use them in my computer, then I just give the command Delete images in folder to the camera, select the work folder and they are gone from my private camera, since I don't need them there any longer.
Not all cameras can do this, but my 7D supports it, and I use it.

This is not the same thing as having two cards, since if you have that, you can for example save a backup of the same image on the other card, or save RAW on one card and jpeg for immediate use, perhaps printing on the fly, on the other. I can do that with my 7D too, kind of, since I have a WFT-E5B on one of them. That grip has a USB port, which will take a USB memory drive, and that gives the 7D the same functionality as cameras having two cards.

I also save setup files for the network grip on my card, and don't want them deleted when I erase images either.


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umphotography
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Jan 06, 2013 12:07 |  #18

apersson850 wrote in post #15452121 (external link)
I don't shoot professionally, so I usually end up having different sorts of events and stuff on the same card. To make it easier to access the images in an orderly manner, I've created folders on the card for such stuff I return to shooting in a regular manner. Like orienteering, other sports, portraits, things related to my work, parties and general stuff.

By selecting for example the work folder, when taking pictures that are related to my work (which doesn't have anything with photography to do per see, but sometimes images are needed inside documents of various kind), I know where I have them. Thus they are easy to retrieve when I want to use them in my computer, then I just give the command Delete images in folder to the camera, select the work folder and they are gone from my private camera, since I don't need them there any longer.
Not all cameras can do this, but my 7D supports it, and I use it.

I also save setup files for the network grip on my card, and don't want them deleted when I erase images either.


OK. I get it. Thanks for the explanation. I guess everyones needs are different. I would not use this method but understand why someone might. Cards are just cheap these days. Seems like it would be easier and less risk to get a set of cards, label them A,B,C, ECT,,and use accordingly. My old feeble brain works better this way:lol:


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apersson850
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Jan 06, 2013 12:15 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #19

Selecting a folder on the card is a few seconds. They are all in the camera, on the card.
Having to carry several cards for different cases would require them to reside in pockets, bags or something similar. Chaging to a new different card would require finding the one with the proper label, removing the current one from the camera, inserting the other one and taking care of the one now removed from the camera.
Works, but seems much more convoluted and risky from my point of view.


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Jan 06, 2013 12:18 |  #20

If you have Magic Lantern on your cards (I have it on all of mine), you will be prompted to "reformat and keep Magic Lantern" automatically. The camera will reformat the card and then restore Magic Lantern.
As far as formatting vs erasing. It's still better to reformat as Mike suggests. I spend more time than is healthy on this board and others and I still see plenty of threads about corrupt images when downloading cards. One common theme in most of these threads is that the user just clears the card when it gets full but never re-formats. There is nothing "old school" about reformatting your card, and it won't delete magic lantern from your cards.


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Jan 06, 2013 12:29 |  #21

There's no difference. Saying format is safer than delete is all based on anecdotal evidence. I could say that I jump in a circle before every photo shoot and I've never had a corrupted image, but that doesn't mean the two are related at all.

quick format and delete are the same thing anyway. Full/low-level format use up write cycles needlessly, which will cause quicker card failures and all but guarantee you can't recover lost files from the card.


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tickerguy
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Jan 06, 2013 12:34 |  #22

umphotography wrote in post #15451899 (external link)
What your talking about is the quickest way i can think of to ruin a card. Most card failures happen because of what you are trying to do...Improper formatting......FORMAT your card before you start to shoot something, load the images to your computer and back them up......End of discussion

Every time you shoot something, format your card before. Deleting files or clearing a folder is gonna lead to disaster. Reformat the card next time you want to shoot something and follow this proceedure (format,shoot,backup) and You will probably never have a card failure as long as you keep it out of your pocket

Utter nonsense.

First, a "format" is not really a "format" as you used to think of it. That disappeared when dedicated and embedded servo showed up in fixed disks. In the "old days" of MFM and RLL2,7 winchester coding you really DID write "formatting" to the disk, complete with the inter-sector gaps and all. That is simply no longer true; with damn few exceptions it is impossible to rewrite servo information in the field on modern fixed disks.

With solid-state memory devices (e.g. SD, CF etc cards) there is no such thing as a "physical" format. All format operations are logical-only -- they establish only the directory structure. And unless yours is corrupted there is utterly no reason to write a new one on the card. Indeed, doing so is asking for trouble as memory cards (all solid-state flash memory) has a fixed number of write cycles it can endure before it is exhausted and fails.

Canon and other device makers establish their own hierarchy for storage cards and demand it comply with their desires or they won't recognize it. This is what the "format" operation does and unless the card is damaged it should be done exactly ONCE for a any given card to be used in any given device. This pisses me off, incidentally, because there is exactly ZERO reason why I shouldn't be able to take a SD card out of my Tascam DR40 and stuff it in a 60D, writing files to it in both devices, but I can't because both devices demand that the folder layout be EXACTLY as they wish or they will claim I have to "format" the card first. Fine, whatever, but that's the manufacturers being pigheaded, not anything real. Since a memory card has zero seek time (that is, no matter where you write or read on the card it takes the same amount of time to do it) there is no reason to enforce a folder layout other than the manufacturer's laziness and attempt to force dedicated cards for specific devices.

When I shoot I bring the pictures into my laptop (if on location) or network storage on my home system when I'm done with the particular event in question (or at the end of the day if it stretches over more than one.) If I'm on location and have access to a Wifi network I then immediately tell the laptop to mirror that structure up to my office. Once I know the files are on stable storage then from the PC I simply go into the DCIM directory and delete all the images (CTRL-A / DELETE on a PC) The card is then "cleared" and ready for re-use. This results in the MINIMUM number of write cycles that you can get away with and thus the MINIMUM degradation in service life.

I've been doing that with various card-eating devices since they started making digital cameras and other "removable storage" things and have yet to have a problem doing it. The only time I've had a card go bad on me is when the device in question gets squirrelly (mostly confined to cellphones with removable storage) and decides to screw up the card. THAT requires a format, but it's not the card's fault nor my handling of it that's responsible. I've never had a digital camera do this nor any of my portable audio devices.

BTW be careful who's card reader you use in your PC as some suck and those, if used to write to the card (E.g. erase files) CAN cause trouble. The $10 card readers are, not surprisingly, worth about $10. My laptops have never scrambled a card on me but cheap PC USB-style readers have and will, so I pay up for for the better ones. Buy one of these if you have a stand-alone machine and and want something that works properly and quit worrying about it -- the 35 and 37u versions are "cased" and thus don't need to be "mounted" (which works well if you happen to be someone with an "all in one" PC built into the monitor and want a "reads anything" card reader solution)

http://www.newegg.com …tech%20Flash%20​Technology (external link)

The blue LEDs are obnoxious (I HATE blue LEDs) but a piece of electrical tape fixes that problem.

Oh, incidentally, some cards are crap. And if you buy online (especially off eBAY) there's a risk of getting counterfeits, which is even worse. The final issue is that SDHC and SDXC cards are electrically different than a standard SD card and if you stick one in a device that doesn't know how to talk to it you will reliably trash the formatting. But that's a compatibility issue, not a card or device failure. I've had no trouble with Sandisk, Lexar and Transcend and recommend and use all three.


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Jan 06, 2013 13:56 |  #23

I would have right clicked on the DCIM folder and deleted the folder.

Or another way would be get the program you use to import the photos to your PC is to delete the photos once done. However if your business requires keeping your customers happy this might not be the best way.

the camera will then recreate that folder when it wants to write a photo to the card.

But since I don't need to keep the folders on my memory every time I am finished I format the card. No big deal. it's a quick format and it doesn't hurt the storage device. No format ever would unless the card is damaged.


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umphotography
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Jan 06, 2013 14:00 |  #24

tickerguy wrote in post #15452233 (external link)
Utter nonsense.

First, a "format" is not really a "format" as you used to think of it. That disappeared when dedicated and embedded servo showed up in fixed disks. In the "old days" of MFM and RLL2,7 winchester coding you really DID write "formatting" to the disk, complete with the inter-sector gaps and all. That is simply no longer true; with damn few exceptions it is impossible to rewrite servo information in the field on modern fixed disks.

With solid-state memory devices (e.g. SD, CF etc cards) there is no such thing as a "physical" format. All format operations are logical-only -- they establish only the directory structure. And unless yours is corrupted there is utterly no reason to write a new one on the card. Indeed, doing so is asking for trouble as memory cards (all solid-state flash memory) has a fixed number of write cycles it can endure before it is exhausted and fails.

Canon and other device makers establish their own hierarchy for storage cards and demand it comply with their desires or they won't recognize it. This is what the "format" operation does and unless the card is damaged it should be done exactly ONCE for a any given card to be used in any given device. This pisses me off, incidentally, because there is exactly ZERO reason why I shouldn't be able to take a SD card out of my Tascam DR40 and stuff it in a 60D, writing files to it in both devices, but I can't because both devices demand that the folder layout be EXACTLY as they wish or they will claim I have to "format" the card first. Fine, whatever, but that's the manufacturers being pigheaded, not anything real. Since a memory card has zero seek time (that is, no matter where you write or read on the card it takes the same amount of time to do it) there is no reason to enforce a folder layout other than the manufacturer's laziness and attempt to force dedicated cards for specific devices.

When I shoot I bring the pictures into my laptop (if on location) or network storage on my home system when I'm done with the particular event in question (or at the end of the day if it stretches over more than one.) If I'm on location and have access to a Wifi network I then immediately tell the laptop to mirror that structure up to my office. Once I know the files are on stable storage then from the PC I simply go into the DCIM directory and delete all the images (CTRL-A / DELETE on a PC) The card is then "cleared" and ready for re-use. This results in the MINIMUM number of write cycles that you can get away with and thus the MINIMUM degradation in service life.

I've been doing that with various card-eating devices since they started making digital cameras and other "removable storage" things and have yet to have a problem doing it. The only time I've had a card go bad on me is when the device in question gets squirrelly (mostly confined to cellphones with removable storage) and decides to screw up the card. THAT requires a format, but it's not the card's fault nor my handling of it that's responsible. I've never had a digital camera do this nor any of my portable audio devices.

BTW be careful who's card reader you use in your PC as some suck and those, if used to write to the card (E.g. erase files) CAN cause trouble. The $10 card readers are, not surprisingly, worth about $10. My laptops have never scrambled a card on me but cheap PC USB-style readers have and will, so I pay up for for the better ones. Buy one of these if you have a stand-alone machine and and want something that works properly and quit worrying about it -- the 35 and 37u versions are "cased" and thus don't need to be "mounted" (which works well if you happen to be someone with an "all in one" PC built into the monitor and want a "reads anything" card reader solution)

http://www.newegg.com …tech%20Flash%20​Technology (external link)

The blue LEDs are obnoxious (I HATE blue LEDs) but a piece of electrical tape fixes that problem.

Oh, incidentally, some cards are crap. And if you buy online (especially off eBAY) there's a risk of getting counterfeits, which is even worse. The final issue is that SDHC and SDXC cards are electrically different than a standard SD card and if you stick one in a device that doesn't know how to talk to it you will reliably trash the formatting. But that's a compatibility issue, not a card or device failure. I've had no trouble with Sandisk, Lexar and Transcend and recommend and use all three.

I wouldnt call it utter nonsense.

This was explained to me by an engineer at sandisc. Also verified through lexar pro. Several years ago, there was a ton of BS information going around the net about factors that contribute to card failure. I met some people from Sandisc and asked them the questions and their expertise regarding the problem\and the misinformation going around the net.

This was explained to me word for word and why they suggest doing it this way. My understanding is that these cards can go through several thousand rewrites before they ever get slow,lazy and/or fail.

For me, i replace cards every 3 yrs. I give my old ones to my kids. Sandisc explained to me that by formatting as they suggest, not me, you stand minimal risk (if at all ) for a card failure. Most card failures are due to contamination or physical damage v/s anything to do with a format issue. They also said most read failures are due to not formatting the card on a regular basis, switching cards in cameras and not formatting prior to the switch, putting on multiple devices and not deleting the files before a switch. Completely contrary to what you have said.

Anyway, not trying to start an argument. Just advising what the card MFG explained to me. I appreciate what you guys say you are doing but its not for me. I guess ive just been lucky doing it the way they say to do it. I had 1 card failure due to contamination...never had a card write failure doing it the way they have told me to do it.

Appreciate everyones input on this.


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Jan 06, 2013 14:16 |  #25

umphotography wrote in post #15451899 (external link)
What your talking about is the quickest way i can think of to ruin a card. Most card failures happen because of what you are trying to do...Improper formatting......FORMAT your card before you start to shoot something, load the images to your computer and back them up......End of discussion

Every time you shoot something, format your card before. Deleting files or clearing a folder is gonna lead to disaster. Reformat the card next time you want to shoot something and follow this proceedure (format,shoot,backup) and You will probably never have a card failure as long as you keep it out of your pocket

Could not agree more. If you do not do this after each shoot you will find that you get less shots on your card every time. Without formatting, there are always bytes left behind which take up space on the card.


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Jan 06, 2013 14:19 |  #26

FWIW, I do both depending on what I'm shooting. During football season I will format after downloading and backup. During basketball season I use the "Erase images" command because I keep custom white balance images for several gyms to save time. I have not had a problem either way and can not find documentation that says one way is better or safer. If you can point to that information please do...


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Jan 06, 2013 14:22 |  #27

Format IN CAMERA upon each use. Simple and quick.


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Jan 06, 2013 16:18 as a reply to  @ Gatorboy's post |  #28

Simple, yes, but takes a LOT of time. Because then the card has to go out of the camera and into a computer, to re-create the folder structure on the card, as well as putting back the WFT setup files. Very error prone and will be one of the most certain ways to failure.

But if you don't use any specific folder structure, nor store any other data on the card, then it's a different game. Haven't been there for several years now.


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Jan 06, 2013 16:32 |  #29

stickerboy111 wrote in post #15452613 (external link)
Could not agree more. If you do not do this after each shoot you will find that you get less shots on your card every time. Without formatting, there are always bytes left behind which take up space on the card.

Not true. Thats a myth that seem to get perpetuated on Internet Forums. When you delete a file it gets marked for re-use. Next time you save a file it uses the spaces marked for re-use. Thats why if you haven't saved any files on top of deleted ones you can sometimes un-delete them. If you have saved new files - less chance.

If that were true, some people that never format will end up with no space left on their card even after deleting all the files.

I never format my cards. Been using 400Plus hack on one camera with the same card for 3 years and 5D Magic Lantern on the other for 3 months and haven't had a problem yet.


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tkbslc
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Jan 06, 2013 17:14 |  #30

A card is just a storage device with the same kinds of formatting as a hard drive. Do you format your hard drive every week to prevent corruption? Are you afraid to delete only one folder or handful of files? This whole thing is paranoia and internet rumors to the 10th degree.


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