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Thread started 14 Jan 2013 (Monday) 21:45
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Trying to add Photoshop skills

 
pbelarge
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Jan 14, 2013 21:45 |  #1

I have decided, after taking numerous classes by actual instructors (I also love the video/online classes), that I am going to attempt to learn parts of Photoshop that can potentially help me improve some of my images.

I am in the early stages of both instructor led classes and video/online classes.
I have been informed that I should first try to make global changes in Camera Raw first before going to PS and possibly making some of those changes via layers.

My question is, why Camera Raw first , when it seems to me that layers in general can do the same and lots more?


just a few of my thoughts...
Pierre

  
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Jan 14, 2013 21:58 |  #2

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jra
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Jan 14, 2013 22:07 |  #3

Wouldn't you want set up your RAW conversion to give you the best starting point possible before going to Photoshop? I'm assuming that you're talking about RAW files also........if you're talking about JPEG's, I don't see much point in trying to use ACR.




  
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Redcrown
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Jan 14, 2013 23:03 |  #4

Your question is a good one, and seems to be appearing more frequently as more and more people adopt shooting in raw. The common answer is that global adjustments in ACR are better because they operate on the original, linear raw data. That answer always leaves be a little cold. Better in what way? How can you measure or see the difference?

In my experience, I can measure and see the superiority of ACR adjustments only when the degree of those adjustments is high. When an image is well exposed, in good light, with good in-camera white balance, then adjustments are minimal. ACR does not have much advantage over Photoshop adjustment layers. But when an image has some problems, like over or under exposure, blown highlights, blocked shadows, chromatic abberation, or noise, then ACR has an advantage.

I recommend you do some experiments to see for yourself. Take a less than perfect raw image and convert it as is with just the ACR defaults. Use Photoshop adjustment layers to fix it as best you can. Then do another ACR conversion, using the ACR controls to fix it as best you can. Layer these two images on top of each other and toggle on and off at various magnifications and views to see the differences.

Do this by focusing on just one adjustment at a time. Start by comparing just an "exposure" adjustment in ACR compared to Exposure, Levels, or Curves in Photoshop. Then do a highlght recovery in ACR and compare it to highlight recovery in Photoshop. ACR saturation and vibrance vs. Photoshop's equivalents. So on and so on.

Only be experimenting on your own images can you learn and appreciate the differences.

And for what it's worth, I find ACR is superior at all "tonal" adjustments, CA removal, and noise reduction, but is weaker in saturation/vibrance adjustments.




  
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tonylong
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Jan 14, 2013 23:26 |  #5

I'll chime in!

If you are shooting jpegs then don't worry about it -- jpegs open by default in the Photoshop editor, and you can do a whole lot more in the editor than you can in Camera Raw and with jpegs you can get just as good results with "global" edits as you would in Camera Raw, go for it!

The advantage of Camera Raw is if you are shooting in the Raw format -- you have significantly more "latitude" of adjustments with the Raw format and a good Raw converter (Camera Raw is very good.

But it sounds like you are not likely shooting in the Raw format. So, for the goal of learning Photoshop, make it easy on yourself and don't worry about Camera Raw for now:)!


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Jan 15, 2013 00:00 as a reply to  @ tonylong's post |  #6

Whether I want to edit a raw or jpg file, I always open in ACR first. I find it's easier for me to adjust white balance and exposure using the raw editor. The newest version of ACR also does a great job adjusting highlights and shadows before the file is opened in photoshop. If you hold down the shift key, the 'open image' button changes to 'open object' which will then open the file as a smart object in photoshop so you can always double click on that layer and reopen it in ACR if you want to modify your adjustments.


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pbelarge
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Jan 15, 2013 21:50 as a reply to  @ navydoc's post |  #7

I shoot 98% of my images in Raw and have been for years. I have been using LR4 for my global edits and other edits. Lately I have been using onOne and NIK plugins as well.

I have decided to try PS, as the classes I have been taking show other means of post that are processes I want to be able to work with. In my basic beginnings of PS, there are lots of instruction, sometimes without too much background as to why.
I understand Camera Raw fairly well and I really like it.
The reason for my question, is the use of layers with adjustments seem to work extremely well. I am in the process of developing my work flow and am looking to the people here with tons of experience to help me along.

I have performed an awful lot of research in regards to workflow. I have come across a number of PS experts who say they are using PS less and less, LR more and more. Of course there are some who mention it is the only way to go. I am in the process of seeing whether or not it will work for me.

BTW - thanks for the responses. I do expect a lot more questions...;)


just a few of my thoughts...
Pierre

  
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Jan 16, 2013 11:41 |  #8

pbelarge wrote in post #15494213 (external link)
I shoot 98% of my images in Raw and have been for years. I have been using LR4 for my global edits and other edits. Lately I have been using onOne and NIK plugins as well.

I have decided to try PS, as the classes I have been taking show other means of post that are processes I want to be able to work with. In my basic beginnings of PS, there are lots of instruction, sometimes without too much background as to why.
I understand Camera Raw fairly well and I really like it.
The reason for my question, is the use of layers with adjustments seem to work extremely well. I am in the process of developing my work flow and am looking to the people here with tons of experience to help me along.

I have performed an awful lot of research in regards to workflow. I have come across a number of PS experts who say they are using PS less and less, LR more and more. Of course there are some who mention it is the only way to go. I am in the process of seeing whether or not it will work for me.

BTW - thanks for the responses. I do expect a lot more questions...;)

Hello again Pierre - kudos to your efforts at improving in the craft. It's been a journey for myself and I'm always on the lookout for hints and tips that will improve my own situation. I believe I know where you're coming from :D. Hopefully some of my suggestions will provide positive guidance.

I've never used LR so cannot provide any useful advice in that direction. I'm pretty simple in my approach, only using CS5, ACR and Bridge. I also tend to be fairly realistic in my shooting/printing style, having come from a traditional wet darkroom b/w background. Much of my fine art work is urban landscape and some rural.

Like many other photographers here, I probably use only a small percent of PS's horsepower, using many of the same tools and techniques over and over.

When I process an image I think of the following: image composition, brightness, shadows, contrast, saturation, level of detail, things like that. Composition usually is not a processing step - I will have done that during the CAPTURE in most instances. Some tweaking in PS may be necessary though.

Like others I shoot RAW, preferring to make my global changes in ACR to the maximum amount of information. This also makes it very easy to set WB over ranges of images shot under the same illumination. It works well with wedding and social event work as well as certain landscape situations. I will use the graph sliders on one of the RAW submenus to tone down extreme highlights, or re-illuminate some shadow or dark areas. Some fill light may be thrown in, as well as a bit of highlight recovery.

Once I've prepared my RAW image, I will open and save it as a TIF. Now the real fun begins. I tend to "see" my files as bright zones and dark areas and I usually make my exposures in such a way that my highlights don't get too blown out. IMO I feel it's easier to reclaim shadow detail - even with the danger of introducing noise - than it is to bring back highlight detail that was obliterated. When pixels are gone.......well they are gone.

I use EXPOSURE ADJUSTMENT LAYERS a lot in CS5 to fix what I couldn't achieve in the initial capture.

BRIGHT AREAS: This is typically sky, but can also include light pavement, sand dunes, things of that nature. I will first create my Exposure Adjustment Layer. On the top menu -

Layer –> duplicate layer This will be my work layer. I usually start out with the LEVELS menu and may even select AUTO to see how PS interprets the scene. If it subjectively pleases me I will keep it. Now I will apply a Layer Mask

Layer – layer mask – hide all - hit B for brush key – percentage of brush I will be erasing away portions of this using the brush too. After "hiding all" I hit the "B" key which is the shortcut for the paintbrush. If I want to erase away 100% of an area - exposing the changes I have made underneath - I hit the "0" key. If I want to just erase 50% of it I hit 5; you see the correlation. As part of my particular workflow I flatten the image when I am done. I don't go back ;).

I will then repeat Layer –> duplicate layer and examine my highlight areas. Using the Levels menu or perhaps exposure, or contrast/brightness, I will make adjustments to the brighter portion of the image. I will go through and do the exact same thing with the darker or shadowed areas until I am satisfied that I've revealed sufficient detail. Throughout all this I may adjust saturation levels, but not WB. Any WB tweaks would have already been addressed in my Global RAW adjustments.

Sharpenning - Only when I'm satisfied with all other factors will I sharpen the image as my last step. And I rarely sharpen the ENTIRE image.

If you are doing landscapes and many other types of work, think about how the human eye/brain regards such a scene. Foreground objects are often sharper, more distinct and vibrant, while background detail fades into distance. Too many people make the mistake of sharpenning everything in a scene. This may be fine for close-in work or flatter objects, but it is not optimal for pleasing landscape work.

Again, I will make another adjustment layer (duplicate layer) but now instead of applying exposure changes I will add sharpenning. I due this with the UnSharp Filter. And for most landscapes I will "erase away" the foreground part of the scene rendering it sharp, while ignoring the background. By not applying an sharpenning to the background it creates that "fading off into the distance" technique.

What I have described in the last paragraph is also know as ATMOSPHERIC PERSPECTIVE. The technique helps give depth and dimensionality to our picture. The challenge of the landscape photographer is to take a 3-dimensional real world scene and place it on a two dimension piece of paper or screen in such a way that it still appears 3D. ;)


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Jan 16, 2013 13:43 |  #9

Workflow is a matter of what gives you the results you want in a manner that works for you. A lot of people trying to find a workflow often concentrate on the tools and underemphasize the more abstract, conceptual goals they ultimately are trying to achieve. If you can't at least figure out what it is you want to do, how can you figure out the best way to achieve "it"?

Of course you can't explore all the options without trying them. I sort of see the workflow discovery as a process. Shoot some images with the focus on acquiring good images. Don't worry about how you are going to process them. This gives you a good reference image set to test your workflow on. Make sure your image set has the kinds of test images that include what you typically shoot.

Now you can trial software, test conversion methods, edit images with various approaches and see what works best- that is, gives you the results that achieve your goals.

It's an iterative process. Some folks like working in Lightroom because it is a one-stop raw conversion, DAM, editing and printing tool. If your goals can be achieved in that environment, that may be a solution. Some folks are photoshop freaks and have a lot if time and energy and resources and experience invested in working in photoshop - probably to achieve the exact same thing others may achieve in Lightroom.

You may not have a history with any previous incarnations of software, or even any previous photography experience. Sometimes that is the most confusing position to be in. You simply have no anchor in terms of a starting point or a reference. Most tools have trials, so try them out and see what is comfortable.

If you shoot raw you must spend at least minimal time in a raw converter to get an image out of the data. Other than that, you are free to choose whatever works for you. Take suggestions on workflow as suggestions. On person's Lightroom is another person's dcraw, is another person's DPP.

If I use Adobe's conversion engine, I use it in ACR - I don't feel the need to use Lightroom. I use 3 or 4 different raw conversion utilities, for different reasons and then work in photoshop. I don't use keywords or tags or smart collections or web galleries, so most of Lightroom is bloat for me. I sort or preview images in Bridge or XNViewMP.

Workflow has basic steps (download images, back up images, sort keepers, raw conversion, process, finish, output) that can mean different things each time in terms of the tools you use. If you set a goal for the project, the specifics of the workflow will become evident as you gain experience in a core set of tools.

So, keep trying different solutions until you find something that works for you. That's what all of the big wig folks who tell you what you should use did, but how do they know what you need? Suggestions are useful, but not mandatory.

Have fun!

Kirk


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René ­ Damkot
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Jan 16, 2013 14:45 |  #10

pbelarge wrote in post #15489762 (external link)
My question is, why Camera Raw first , when it seems to me that layers in general can do the same and lots more?

If you shoot Raw, anything that can be done in ACR, should be one in ACR: More info to work with.
http://luminous-landscape.com …-series/u-raw-files.shtml (external link)

If you shoot jpg, I wouldn't bother with ACR.


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tonylong
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Jan 16, 2013 20:24 |  #11

René Damkot wrote in post #15496971 (external link)
If you shoot Raw, anything that can be done in ACR, should be one in ACR: More info to work with.
http://luminous-landscape.com …-series/u-raw-files.shtml (external link)

If you shoot jpg, I wouldn't bother with ACR.

I agree with René, good advice. If you don't "maximize" your use of your Raw processor (in your case LR but also if you are delving into PS CS6, Camera Raw), then, well, you miss on much of the benefit of shooting Raw!

Now, of course, it's good to learn the abilities of Photoshop, to get as many skills "on-board" as you can, and that may even involve "skipping over" all the Raw processing tools to learn the things that the Photoshop editor can achieve, just realize that once you are out of LR/Camera Raw, you are no longer working with the Raw data, unless you open it as a Smart Object for non-destructive editing and the ability to "re-open" the Raw in your Raw procesor.

But, enjoy that Photoshop "learning curve", PS can accomplish some amazing things!


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Jan 16, 2013 21:40 |  #12

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pbelarge
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Jan 16, 2013 21:58 |  #13

sapearl wrote in post #15496189 (external link)
Hello again Pierre - kudos to your efforts at improving in the craft. It's been a journey for myself and I'm always on the lookout for hints and tips that will improve my own situation. I believe I know where you're coming from :D. Hopefully some of my suggestions will provide positive guidance.


[/FONT]

**I did not want to post all of your comment, just some for reference to others.


Stuart
WOW!!! Positive, helpful and just wonderful. Your post was of tremendous help and encouragement. Thank you!

Kirkt, Thank you! I appreciate what you were saying, I completely understood it.

Rene and Tony, I want to thank you guys as well. I have read hundreds of your prior posts, and I have learned a lot from them. Thanks!

PhotosGuy, Thanks for the great link, lots to digest there.


just a few of my thoughts...
Pierre

  
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Gators1
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Feb 04, 2013 17:39 |  #14

The raw file has significantly more detail than a jpeg, tiff or whatever. You have about 2-2.5 stops of detail to play with depending on your camera, so you can do a lot with fixing exposure problems that are much harder to fix in Photoshop after the raw conversion. For example, try taking a picture outside with a relatively bright sky and some shadow included in the frame. Go into LR and pull the highlights to the left and the shadows to the right 100% (version 4). It does a nice job of balancing the exposure, right? Now try to do the same with exposure adjustment layers on a jpeg in photoshop. If you ever shoot outside, this alone is why you should learn to use ACR, but it's far more powerful than that. Personally I use LR/ACR at the beginning, open the resulting file into photoshop and do what it does best in there. Then maybe I bring it back the file to LR for some final edits if I feel LR does a better job or makes it easier. It's really just a matter of experience and taste that determine which features you use, but definitely explore using ACR or LR to start your workflow.




  
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