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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 26 Jan 2013 (Saturday) 10:20
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A New Bare Bulb Flash Arrives

 
dmward
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Jan 26, 2013 22:49 |  #16

tetrode wrote in post #15538157 (external link)
David, I'm not in a position to discuss product pricing, but I can say that the number you picked is definitely not within the realm of possibility. The manufacturer has been adamant about maintaining a very specific price point and that price point is well north of what we might wish for. Edward actually has very little maneuvering room if he wants to sell this product.

The CL-180 is most definitely in a different product tier than, say, the Yongnuo family of flashes and you have to accept that it will be priced accordingly. I know for a fact that Edward is trying his best to bring this flash to market at the most attractive price possible.

I can appreciate the complexities of pricing products into a market. (It's one of my not so fond memories from yesteryear. :-) )

Based on the information you provided I'm expecting the CL-180 is competitive with the Quantum devices. I based my "wish" number on what I think wedding and other photographers will be interested in paying for its capabilities. At $600 or so a unit it becomes a much more difficult decision for a photographer to make. Now its just about the same price as a monolight with battery pack that also has remote power control. So, why make the investment?

Obviously I am making these comments without any real market research, just gut feel.

And then it comes down to quantities. Selling 100 a month at price X or 300 at price Y or 600 at price Z.

One thing I remember from my product marketing days is that some private label manufacturers have an unrealistic vision of their products value. :-)

That's probably enough about product marketing and pricing for this thread. :-)


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Wilt
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Jan 26, 2013 23:00 |  #17

dmward wrote in post #15538134 (external link)
I think this is more targeted at Quantum than Lumedyne.

Quantum flashes have Auto. OP has not yet responded to the question of what modes are available. But judging from the front view, there is no photosensor window (hole in case front), only red windows that indicate perhaps optical slave trigger and AF assist illumination.
Looking at the remote, one can assume that it is hotshoe compatible with Canon, so ETTL support provides the HSS support that I was puzzled about.


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Jan 26, 2013 23:11 |  #18

Looks very nice, and with a lot more grunt than a speedlite (and quicker recycle at full power)

Looks great for those photographers who want a small light powerful flash, they can easily chuck on a stand and control remotely.

I am rather interested in this, although I dont know if I really need them


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elv
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Jan 26, 2013 23:22 |  #19

dmward wrote in post #15538289 (external link)
At $600 or so a unit it becomes a much more difficult decision for a photographer to make. Now its just about the same price as a monolight with battery pack that also has remote power control. So, why make the investment?

I think you're getting closer to the real price there, but keep in mind the lithium battery pack is worth $200 alone. You can also use the Nimh pack which is around $100 (not sure if Cheetah will sell those), or even use a cheapo 8AA pack

But this is still half the price of a Quantum with battery pack, and theirs are only Nihm with less capacity.

The reason many will choose this over a monolight is because its much smaller and lighter, and you can attach some modifiers directly,which are also much more compact. PCB does make it tough though (in the USA).


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Jan 26, 2013 23:23 |  #20

Interesting. Will be awaiting a confirmed MSRP.


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asianspec
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Jan 27, 2013 00:50 |  #21

Awesome. can't wait til its up for sale.


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mizouse
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Jan 27, 2013 00:55 |  #22

subscribed for price.


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elv
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Jan 27, 2013 02:38 as a reply to  @ mizouse's post |  #23

I put a small post up here if you guys haven't seen the modifiers etc -

http://flashhavoc.com/​cheetah-cl-180-released/ (external link)

.


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Jan 27, 2013 08:35 |  #24

elv wrote in post #15538383 (external link)
The reason many will choose this over a monolight is because its much smaller and lighter, and you can attach some modifiers directly,which are also much more compact.

The reason many will choose this over a monolight is because its much smaller and lighter, and battery powered so it can be used where AC is not available

elv wrote in post #15538383 (external link)
... and you can attach some modifiers directly, which are also much more compact.

But you easily do that with monolights, too...so what is the advantage and draw of this product over monolights?


One real advantage of the general class of product (bare tube) is the continuing ability to rapidly shoot without frying an enclosed flash like the 580EX, or without the deliberately designed-in slow down caused by thermal protection of 580EXII. So we're back to its true competition...Lumedyne and Quantum and others that have bare tube heads.


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elv
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Jan 27, 2013 08:54 |  #25

Wilt wrote in post #15539252 (external link)
But you easily do that with monolights, too...so what is the advantage and draw of this product over monolights?

The Lumedyne mount is tiny compared to most regular mounts and full size speedring.

Their collapsible 19" beauty dish / softbox is great example, that would weigh less than many speedrings alone, and potentially fold up as tight as an umbrella. The snoot is smaller than many speedlight snoots.

Some smaller diameter reflectors would be handy too though. If this mount takes off again though I'm sure we will see many new compact modifiers.


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Jan 27, 2013 10:40 |  #26

elv wrote in post #15539307 (external link)
The Lumedyne mount is tiny compared to most regular mounts and full size speedring.

Their collapsible 19" beauty dish / softbox is great example, that would weigh less than many speedrings alone, and potentially fold up as tight as an umbrella. The snoot is smaller than many speedlight snoots.

Some smaller diameter reflectors would be handy too though. If this mount takes off again though I'm sure we will see many new compact modifiers.

I had a Norman collapsible Octa for my QFlash that was essentially the same as the one offered by Godox. It was a nice modifier but its still only 19" which is marginal.

There is an adapter ring available from someone, don't remember who, that makes it easy to get the flash into a big modifier. Naturally the flash won't support the weight so that's something that has to be dealt with. Cheetah offers a bracket that has an S mount that would probably be the preferable way to mount this flash into a big modifier.

There is also a beauty dish which is probably about 16" that may be a nice modifier.

It would also be easy to use the CL-180 with a Kacey mount. And, by putting the Kacey Elinchrom mount onto the speedlite mount that opens up a lot of options as well.

And don't forget the Apollo type modifiers. Dave showed the CL-180 mounted in one. Probably the 50" soft box that Cheetah offers. That is a nice size and also compact.

And because the bare bulb if radiating all over the back of the modifier, probably quite smooth light on the front diffusion panel. Would probably also be useful without the diffusion panel.


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dmward
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Jan 27, 2013 10:48 |  #27

Wilt wrote in post #15539252 (external link)
One real advantage of the general class of product (bare tube) is the continuing ability to rapidly shoot without frying an enclosed flash like the 580EX, or without the deliberately designed-in slow down caused by thermal protection of 580EXII.

Wilt,
At least one of the descriptions on the eBay offers for the Godox branded version say there is a temp limiter.

Not sure if Dave had a chance to test to confirm its there or not. The bare bulb would probably make it happen much later. And the thing is much more powerful.

I had some Q Flashes and I liked them. I got rid of them before all the newer battery technology became available or maybe I'd still have them. Other thing was that their module to incorporate into Canon/Nikon TTL gave me spotty performance.

What is appealing about this device is size, battery power, and REMOTE POWER SETTING!

Putting one of these into an Apollo type modifier and being able to adjust power from the outside will be a great benefit. Just about as small and portable as speedlites but more power when needed.


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tetrode
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Jan 27, 2013 11:42 |  #28

dmward wrote in post #15539629 (external link)
Wilt,
...
Putting one of these into an Apollo type modifier and being able to adjust power from the outside will be a great benefit. Just about as small and portable as speedlites but more power when needed.

This is really key, David. As I've written in several PMs since yesterday, The CL-180 with an Apollo type modifier is truly a match made in heaven. While I do have the 120cm x 120cm Apollo clone, that modifier is quite large and requires some additional mounting hardware though it does work beautifully with the CL-180. I'm finding the CL-180 with its add-on umbrella mount along with the 90cm x 90cm softbox to be the most useful, most portable, and easiest to set up and take down combination. This is a typical configuration:

IMAGE: http://f.cl.ly/items/3q3w3j1f401H0x2M0l1b/Cheetah_CL180_3.jpg

To give you an idea of what kind of performance the 90cm square + CL-180 pairing will yield, I performed a test this morning comparing output of two Nikon SB-800s in the 90x90 vs. one CL-180. At 60" from the front baffle, ISO 200, the two SB-800s metered f/8.3. The single CL-180 metered f/11.7.

Regarding thermal protection: Yes, the CL-180 has it. Originally it was fairly agressive kicking in after 50 full power flashes in rapid succession (meaning at 3-5 second intervals). This was felt to be a potential problem and was raised as an issue during beta testing with the manufacturer. In response, the limit was increased to 75 full power flashes in rapid succession before thermal protection kicks in. There's a thermometer icon on the flash LCD to indicate protection has been triggered. The flash can still be fired at that point but recycling is slowed to 10 seconds or so.



  
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Wilt
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Jan 27, 2013 11:56 |  #29

I see thermal protection does not kick in until over 2.5x the number of flashes of the lower output 580EXII. Nice.

As for output power, some comparative numbers (metered values, not computed per typical inflated manufacturer GN claims) -- admittedly not apples-to-apples comparison into an umbrella with metalized reflector as the CL-180 figures...

  • Dynalite M500 500 w-s into Dynalite 1020 head with standard reflector (covers 140 degrees) nets GN 135 at ISO 200 or f/27 (vs. CL-180 f/11.7)
  • Dynalite M500 in a 24"x36" softbox would yield f/16 at 4', or GN64. The softbox with white interior and diffusion panel was losing about -1.25EV
  • The Metz 54MZ with zoom head 50mm lens coverage angle (which is only about 50 degrees) and Full power = GN70, f/11.6 at 6' or f/14 at 5'.

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dmward
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Jan 27, 2013 12:18 |  #30

Wilt wrote in post #15539844 (external link)
I see thermal protection does not kick in until over 2.5x the number of flashes of the lower output 580EXII. Nice.

As for output power, some comparative numbers (metered values, not computed per typical inflated manufacturer GN claims) -- admittedly not apples-to-apples comparison into an umbrella with metalized reflector as the CL-180 figures...

  • Dynalite M500 500 w-s into Dynalite 1020 head with standard reflector (covers 140 degrees) nets GN 135 at ISO 200 or f/27 (vs. CL-180 f/11.7)
  • Dynalite M500 in a 24"x36" softbox would yield f/16 at 4', or GN64. The softbox with white interior and diffusion panel was losing about -1.25EV
  • The Metz 54MZ with zoom head 50mm lens coverage angle (which is only about 50 degrees) and Full power = GN70, f/11.6 at 6' or f/14 at 5'.

Wilt,
It sounds like you did these without a diffusion panel, just the metallic umbrella.

The soft box figure is probably more similar and that's just barely 1/3 stop more light from a head that is almost 2.5 times the output. The Metz is also about what one would expect given that there is no diffusion panel involved. Not sure how the Metz compares to the SB-800 that Dave used. Sounds like about the same output.

I also agree that the thermal protection is something that should not get in the way unless its sports action stopping.

Which brings up another question which Dave may or may not have been able to determine.
What is the flash duration at full power and how does the duration change as power is reduced?


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