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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 28 Jan 2013 (Monday) 11:38
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Canon and Adobe don't agree.

 
Curtis ­ N
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Jan 28, 2013 11:38 |  #1

Last week I used two cameras during a session of individual and family shots in the studio. I had both cameras set to 5200K white balance (yeah I double checked afterward to make sure I wasn't nuts).

So I import all the shots (RAW) into Lightroom and here's what I get:
The shots from the 1D Mk II have an "as shot" color temp of 5050K.
The shots from the 5D Mk II have an "as shot" color temp of 4850K.

I also noticed the shots from the 5D Mk II were a little cooler, so I synced the whole bunch at 5050K and they look consistent.

So... if I have a specific color temp set in the camera, why does Adobe Lightroom default to a different color temp? And why different color temps for different cameras? I mean, what's the point of telling the camera one thing if Lightroom will do something different?


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tonylong
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Jan 28, 2013 11:53 |  #2

Well, I've never checked this out, that is, setting a specific Kelvin temp in the camera and comparing it in Lightroom/ACR.

My only guess would be that when Canon sets an in-camera White Balance, what it stores in the Exif/metadata is a "value" that isn't an exact color temp, more of a "proprietary" value. The Adobe software tries to interpret that value, but it's only a case of reverse-engineering the Canon proprietary "code"...

Interestingly, I just quickly checked some shots that I took with a flash, with Auto WB turned on, and Adobe "read" slightly different WB values because I upped my Flash Exposure Compensation for one set. I don't know what the camera Exif value was, though.

At least that's my uneducated guess...


Tony
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tzalman
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Jan 28, 2013 17:46 |  #3

Eric Chan, senior designer of LR/ACR wrote:

The white balance readout in terms of temperature & tint depends on the camera profile (more specifically, the translation between so-called "camera neutral" values and temperature/tint values). Different raw converters use different profiles. This results in different readouts, even if image appearance is the same.

The process of reporting white balance values is non-standardized.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com …04.msg411522#ms​g411522%29 (external link)

Raw converters, whether in the camera or in a computer, do not deal with color temperatures, they deal with multipliers applied to the red and blue channels. But because representing a WB as a pair of multiplier values would be mystifying for most users, the GUI translates those numbers into the corresponding color temperature that the WB will neutralize, a concept more familiar to most photograhers. When "As Shot" is set in the converter it reads from the image file metadata the mutipliers listed there and applies them. However, the WB multipliers are applied after the camera profile and since different converters use different profiles with differing renderings of the basic color values, the post-WB image values are different, even though the same multipliers are used, and the corresponding Kelvin temperature is different.

Now, what happens when you dial a temperature into your camera? The firmware calculates what multipliers will be needed in combination with the Canon profile in order to neutralize light of that color. Then it records the multipliers in the metadata and, if outputting a jpg, applies them. But if you output a Raw, LR reads the multipliers and does the reverse calculation, "What temperature will be neutralized if these multipliers are used with an Adobe profile?" and does not come back to the same temperature that you set in the camera.


Elie / אלי

  
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kirkt
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Jan 28, 2013 18:01 |  #4

Elie - that is probably one of the finest explanations of any topic I have ever read on this forum.

nice.

kirk


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tzalman
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Jan 28, 2013 18:07 |  #5

By pure coincidence, after I finished posting here I flipped over to the Luminous Landscape Forum and found the following, posted today by Andrew Rodney, Author “Color Management for Photographers”, http://digitaldog.net/ (external link) :

Any WB value (in CCT Kelvin) is a range of colors. Plus each converter will produce different values as part of the entire process which is unique so it's not uncommon to see the numbers out of sync. The WB the camera could use on raw to produce a JPEG is just different than what another raw converter might show. Don't get too caught up in specific numbers, WB to visual taste as well (the reason we have those nice sliders in LR).

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/in​dex.php?topic=74599.0 (external link)
I think this reinforces what I wrote above.


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tonylong
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Jan 28, 2013 22:08 |  #6

kirkt wrote in post #15545191 (external link)
Elie - that is probably one of the finest explanations of any topic I have ever read on this forum.

nice.

kirk

Agreed! I'm glad that so many people know more "stuff" than I do and can give intelligent and educated answers to forum questions!!


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Curtis ­ N
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Jan 30, 2013 20:32 |  #7

Elie, thank you for the explanation. I think I understand it, sort of. The concept of camera profiles boggles my mind a bit.

Now, here are my questions:
1) Suppose I use the two cameras referred to above (both are Canon), both set at 5200K and shoot the same scene under the same conditions.
a) Will the camera-produced JPEGs look the same, in terms of color?
b) If I import RAW files into Lightroom and convert to JPEG without adjusting the white balance, will they look the same?
2) If I use two cameras, import both sets of RAW files into Lightroom and sync the white balance, will they look the same?

This is significant, since my wife and I often shoot theatre productions together. We would like to get consistent color with all of the images after conversion.


"If you're not having fun, your pictures will reflect that." - Joe McNally
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Rimmer
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Jan 30, 2013 21:21 |  #8

kirkt wrote in post #15545191 (external link)
Elie - that is probably one of the finest explanations of any topic I have ever read on this forum.

nice.

kirk

^^^ Yes!


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tzalman
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Jan 31, 2013 02:09 |  #9

Curtis N wrote in post #15554304 (external link)
Elie, thank you for the explanation. I think I understand it, sort of. The concept of camera profiles boggles my mind a bit.

Now, here are my questions:
1) Suppose I use the two cameras referred to above (both are Canon), both set at 5200K and shoot the same scene under the same conditions.
a) Will the camera-produced JPEGs look the same, in terms of color?
b) If I import RAW files into Lightroom and convert to JPEG without adjusting the white balance, will they look the same?
2) If I use two cameras, import both sets of RAW files into Lightroom and sync the white balance, will they look the same?

This is significant, since my wife and I often shoot theatre productions together. We would like to get consistent color with all of the images after conversion.

Just like monitors and printers, every camera has its unique "footprint", its way of rendering colors. Canon quality control tries to hold them within a pre-determined range, but they won't be identical, even two units of the same model. The first step in the processing workflow is the application of a camera profile that attempts to adjust the image data to a scene referred standard, i.e. to make the colors realistic, or to a viewer oriented standard, to make them pleasing (for instance Faithful vs. Landscape profiles), and it is largely successful in creating standardization across units and models. But the extent of that success (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. The critical eye will see differences because the profile is "canned", i.e. generic. I once thought that a large firm like Adobe would test at least a dozen or so units when making the profiles, but in a recent interview Eric Chan revealed that often only a single unit is used. (I still think it likely that more care goes into the profiling of a 5D3 or D800 than a p&s.) In this respect Canon, having more units available, probably does a better job, both in-camera and in DPP. Nevertheless, just like a monitor or a printer, a custom profile will be more accurate and today LR/ACR users can easily produce a scene referred one with the Color Checker or QP Card references.
So for a.), to a large extent, yes, but not 100%.
And for b.), like a.) but it would be better if the cameras are profiled and WB is set using the eyedropper on a reliable grey target.
2.) I would expect better uniformity if each camera is WBed to the same grey target.

On a personal note - Knowing the propensity of lighting managers and directors to creatively use lighting to create an atmosphere that advances an artistic agenda as well as technical difficulties like LED lighting in venues with restricted budgets, I do not envy your job. But if you aim for a level of uniformity that will satisfy the man writing your check, I think you can achieve it.


Elie / אלי

  
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bratkinson
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Jan 31, 2013 06:28 |  #10

Although I don't have 2 cameras, I've had great success with the X-Rite Color Checker. According to their documention, it doesn't matter which camera, which manufacturer, etc. Once each camera is 'set up' in Lightroom (and other software), it will unconditionally produce identical color rendition, assuming each camera took a picture of the Color Checker under the same lighting. That way, multiple shooters at a wedding, for example, would have identical color balancing, even if one shooter had Nikon and the other Canon!


"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." General George S Patton, Jr 1885-1945

  
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Curtis ­ N
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Jan 31, 2013 06:59 |  #11

Thank you Elie for the insights. I have a WhiBal card and Photovision Target, but I have never used them to syncronize two cameras before. I will do some experimenting.

I do find it interesting that the images from the two cameras seemed to match better after syncronizing the white balance in Lightroom. It seems like Adobe knows more about Canon's cameras than Canon does.


"If you're not having fun, your pictures will reflect that." - Joe McNally
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Flash Photography 101 | The EOS Flash Bible  (external link)| Techniques for Better On-Camera Flash (external link) | How to Use Flash Outdoors| Excel-based DOF Calculator (external link)

  
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Canon and Adobe don't agree.
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