Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Guest
Forums  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
Thread started 01 Mar 2013 (Friday) 12:38
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

Body & Glass upgrade!

 
Versus78
Member
97 posts
Joined Mar 2012
Location: Québec, Canada
     
Mar 01, 2013 12:38 |  #1

Hi guys, i'm sure the topic have been covered a few times, but after searching the forum for a little while I didn't find that many opinions n the subject.. Or maybe i'm just poor for topic search!!

Here it is... I own a 7d which I bought used a few months ago. Love the camera, feel solid, and I love the ergonomics, playing with it become more intuitive every day. I mainly use it with my 15-85mm, and use it for nature photos, street, landscapes, family, a bit of portrait, and travel. I've been tempted to go FF. 7D is awesome for sports with it's 8fps and very customizable AF, but it's not a feature I find myself to use a lot.

So I am thinking about getting the 6D + 24-105 because:

-high iso performance
-more control over DoF on FF
-a bit lighter than 7D
-GPS (I always geo-tag manually my 7d photos)
-higher IQ

disadvantages:
-no built-in flash controller (will need to buy another flash for off-camera flash)
-lower fps
-lower flash x-sync (1/250 on 7d vs 1/180 on 6d)
-lower shutter rated life


Another thing that makes me consider the upgrade is that I can still seel my 7d for about the same price that I paid for it... With the rumours of a 7D MKII, in ahlf a year from now the 7D MKI will likely drop

So, anybody made that upgrade?

Thanks

Seb.


Sebastien // Nikon D750 - Tokina 17-35mm PRO FX F4 - Nikon 24-120mm f/4 VR - Nikon 50mm f/1.8 AF-D - Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD - Yongnuo YN568EX

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
oklaiss
Senior Member
471 posts
Joined Nov 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
     
Mar 01, 2013 13:35 |  #2

If you don't shoot a lot of fast moving subjects or sports, definitely upgrade to FF. Now is a great time to sell your 7d as well.


5D Mark II Gripped, 60D Gripped, 450D, 24-105 f/4L, 85 1.8, 70-200 f/4L IS, Nifty Fifty, 28 1.8, B+W/Lee/Cokin/Hitech filters, 430ex II x2
Flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TSchrief
Goldmember
Avatar
2,099 posts
Joined Aug 2012
Location: Bourbon, Indiana
     
Mar 01, 2013 13:37 |  #3
bannedPermanent ban

Versus78 wrote in post #15665185 (external link)
advantages:
-high iso performance
-more control over DoF on FF
-a bit lighter than 7D
-GPS (I always geo-tag manually my 7d photos)
-higher IQ

disadvantages:
-no built-in flash controller (will need to buy another flash for off-camera flash)
-lower fps
-lower flash x-sync (1/250 on 7d vs 1/180 on 6d)
-lower shutter rated life

I don't own a 7D and have no plans to buy a 6D. Please take my opinions with a grain of salt.

First 7D and 6D are vastly different cameras. You may with to consider keeping the 7D for reach, fps and EF-s glass. Now for some line commentary on your listed advantages and disadvantages:

-high iso performance - Is 1 to 1.5 stops worth $2000?
-more control over DoF on FF - At the HUGE expense of having to buy fast EF glass.
-a bit lighter than 7D - I shoot Elan 7, 5d, 60D - all gripped. After 90 seconds you can't tell the difference.
-GPS (I always geo-tag manually my 7d photos) - OK.
-higher IQ - Discounting high ISO performance, the 6D is no better than the 5D, yes the original. See POTN posting by grunitcus comparing the two.

-no built-in flash controller (will need to buy another flash for off-camera flash)
lots of good, cheap, used flashes are available,

-lower fps - If it matters, keep the 7D, you have to go 1Dx to get that back.
-lower flash x-sync (1/250 on 7d vs 1/180 on 6d) - irrelevant, HSS lets you go to 1/4000 (6D can't do 1/8000, 7D can)
-lower shutter rated life - this in only an engineering MTBF estimate, in reality it means NOTHING. Your shutter can still fail at click 38, or click 383421, on either body.

Once again, opinion. I believe the 5D3 is an upgrade from the 7D. The 6D is only and upgrade if all you want is a full-frame sensor, and you can get that with 5D, 5D2, 1DsX or the like. In every other respect it is a step backward from the 7D.


Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Versus78
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
97 posts
Joined Mar 2012
Location: Québec, Canada
     
Mar 02, 2013 09:09 |  #4

That's a very interesting way of seeing things... I do understand why the 5D is still a very popular & capable camera.

I was however sure that DoF on FF vs APS-C was different.. for exemple, using the same lens & same framing on both bodies... The subject to camera distance would be different. To keep the same amount of background blur would require the lens to be stopped down on a FF, i've think 've seem somewhere this translates into a "virtual" full f-stop.

Thanks for you guys input though!

Sebastien


Sebastien // Nikon D750 - Tokina 17-35mm PRO FX F4 - Nikon 24-120mm f/4 VR - Nikon 50mm f/1.8 AF-D - Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD - Yongnuo YN568EX

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jaomul
Goldmember
Avatar
1,236 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 71
Joined Apr 2011
Location: Cork, Ireland
     
Mar 02, 2013 09:21 |  #5

Versus78 wrote in post #15668049 (external link)
That's a very interesting way of seeing things... I do understand why the 5D is still a very popular & capable camera.

I was however sure that DoF on FF vs APS-C was different.. for exemple, using the same lens & same framing on both bodies... The subject to camera distance would be different. To keep the same amount of background blur would require the lens to be stopped down on a FF, i've think 've seem somewhere this translates into a "virtual" full f-stop.

Thanks for you guys input though!

Sebastien

Looking at your lenses, 3 of them are no good to you if you upgrade, and while ff has different dof and all that your lenses don't really give you the dof possible on a crop. Thats not to say your lenses are not good, but if you like portraits why not try get your hands on something like a canon EF 85 f1.8 or similar, even for a loan and see can this give you the type of results you want


flickr (external link)
Olympus EM5,Nikon d7200,
Olympus 12-50mm, 40-150mm,17mm f2.8,Nikon 50mm F1.8, Tamron 90mm vc, 18-105mmVR, Sigma 18-35 f1.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
StillCrazy
Senior Member
Avatar
612 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Sep 2012
Location: Vermont, USA
     
Mar 02, 2013 09:42 |  #6

TSchrief wrote in post #15665400 (external link)
The 6D is only and upgrade if all you want is a full-frame sensor, and you can get that with 5D, 5D2, 1DsX or the like. In every other respect it is a step backward from the 7D.

Thanks for this. I too am trying to decide, 7D, 7Dii, 70D, or FF. I shared many of your comparison thoughts, but I didn't have confidence in my own reasoning. Now I feel better about not going FF.

I'm a serious hobbyist, not a pro. The expense of changing formats is way to high to justify it. If I can get good results with the 7D series, than it makes more sense. I don't need the high fps rate for sport shots, but it will not self destruct if I use it only for portraits and landscapes.


StillCrazy - after all these years.
Canon T3i, Sigma 18-200, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 70-300, Rokinon 14, Yongnuo YN 565 EX
My flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
amfoto1
Cream of the Crop
10,331 posts
Likes: 146
Joined Aug 2007
Location: San Jose, California
     
Mar 02, 2013 09:53 |  #7

I use a pair of 7Ds alongside a 5DII.

Personally I wouldn't consider it an upgrade, going from 7D to 6D.

Unless you are making really big prints, you aren't going to see any noticeable difference in your images. Unless you are shooting a lot in very low light, the 6D doesn't have a lot of advantage over a 7D. It falls short in a number of other ways. Likewise, the 24-105 falls short of the 15-85 in some ways, too.

You can use an ST-E2 or ST-E3 module to control off-camera flash, if you wish, instead of getting another flash. In fact, you might even want to consider that for your 7D. It's superior to the in-camera wireless flash control on the 7D... The ST-Ex use near IR light to communicate instead of obnoxious white light flashes... And with continuous use they don't overheat and shut down. On the other hand, the new radio based off-camera flash control system is immensely superior to the line-of-sight-limited optical based system of the earlier flashes, control modules and cameras... Maybe it's time to start converting to that? (Rumor is a radio-controlled 430EXish model will be coming soon, to complement the 600EX-RT.)

As someone noted, you will need to replace 3 out of 4 of your lenses. For full frame you have a bit less choice of lenses, than you do with crop cameras. And a kit of lenses for FF will tend to be larger, heavier and more expensive.

Frankly, your best bet would be to buy better/different glass to use on your 7D... Most of which doesn't have to be "crop only" and might put you in a better position to switch to or add a FF camera in the future. Get some larger aperture primes and you'll have a lot more opportunity to blur down backgrounds, control DOF.

Oh, and yes, the 7D will drop in value when a new model comes out. But 6D will start to depreciate too, as soon as you remove it from the box and take a shot with it.

I believe there are geotagging modules you can use with your 7D or other models. Personally I'd rather add a module like that, than have the feature built into a camera.

StillCrazy wrote in post #15668130 (external link)
Thanks for this. I too am trying to decide, 7D, 7Dii, 70D, or FF. I shared many of your comparison thoughts, but I didn't have confidence in my own reasoning. Now I feel better about not going FF.

I'm a serious hobbyist, not a pro. The expense of changing formats is way to high to justify it. If I can get good results with the 7D series, than it makes more sense. I don't need the high fps rate for sport shots, but it will not self destruct if I use it only for portraits and landscapes.

StillCrazy, your signature shows a T3i, not a 7D. However, based upon your described uses, a 7D isn't going to do much for you and a T3i should be fine. Essentially they use the same sensor and give the same image qualities. Same with a 60D.

A 7DII and other "next-generation" Canon APS-C are likely to be around 24MP cameras, just based upon what the competition is doing. That may or may not be a good thing, may or may not be "upgrades", depending upon how the future croppers handle noise at higher ISOs.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigJilm
Member
218 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2010
Location: Idaho
     
Mar 02, 2013 09:55 as a reply to  @ StillCrazy's post |  #8

Versus, I recently sold my 7D and bought the 6D. My reasons were that I didn't use the higher FPS and I needed much better low light performance for shooting bands in dark clubs. Those were the main reasons and I am very happy I did.

I also appreciate the gps because I was manually geo tagging and it was a pain. I don't use flash for the most part (and wasn't impressed with the 7Ds on camera flash) so that didn't factor in for me.

If low light performance is the main reason you will be happy. Shooting bands I couldn't go higher than f/2.8 iso 3200 with the 7D to get good shots. With the 6D I can't believe what I can do. This shot is at iso 10,000 f/7.1.

IMAGE: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8454267103_2715fb4baf_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …/91404896@N04/8​454267103/  (external link)
chess 228 (external link) by Angel of Depth (external link), on Flickr

Canon EOS 6D, 70-200 f/4L, 85mm f/1.8, 24-105 f/4L, 40mm pancake

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ddk632
Goldmember
Avatar
1,606 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 26
Joined Jul 2012
Location: Aventura, FL
     
Mar 02, 2013 10:06 |  #9

amfoto1 wrote in post #15668158 (external link)
You can use an ST-E2 or ST-E3 module to control off-camera flash, if you wish, instead of getting another flash. In fact, it's superior to the in-camera wireless flash control on the 7D... The ST-Ex use near IR light to communicate instead of obnoxious white light flashes... and they don't overheat and shut down. On the other hand, the new radio based off-camera flash control system is immensely superior to the line-of-sight-limited optical based system of the earlier flashes and cameras... Maybe it's time to start converting to that (rumor is a radio-controlled 430EXish model will be coming soon, to complement the 600EX-R).

Just wanted to clarify here that the ST-E2 uses IR, and the ST-E3 uses radio and does not have an IR emitter built in. ST-E3 does not have the line of sight limitation of the ST-E2, but it cannot control the older flashes. Hence, the ST-E2 only works with 580EXII's (and lower) while the ST-E3 only works with the 600EX-RT. You cannot use an ST-E2 with the 600REX-RT and you cannot use the ST-E3 with 580EXII or lower. So it's one or the other. This is stated in the description for ST-E3 on the Canon USA website.

You can however use radio triggers with any flash and/or camera, although I am having some issues with my 6D when WiFi is enabled and the Yongnuo triggers not firing.


Dmitriy Khaykin (external link)
dk (external link) | f (external link) | ig (external link) | t (external link) | flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
amfoto1
Cream of the Crop
10,331 posts
Likes: 146
Joined Aug 2007
Location: San Jose, California
     
Mar 02, 2013 10:17 |  #10

BigJilm wrote in post #15668165 (external link)
Versus, I recently sold my 7D and bought the 6D. My reasons were that I didn't use the higher FPS and I needed much better low light performance for shooting bands in dark clubs. Those were the main reasons and I am very happy I did.

I also appreciate the gps because I was manually geo tagging and it was a pain. I don't use flash for the most part (and wasn't impressed with the 7Ds on camera flash) so that didn't factor in for me.

If low light performance is the main reason you will be happy. Shooting bands I couldn't go higher than f/2.8 iso 3200 with the 7D to get good shots. With the 6D I can't believe what I can do. This shot is at iso 10,000 f/7.1.

chess 228 (external link) by Angel of Depth (external link), on Flickr

Yeah, if you shoot JPEG you likely can use two or three stops higher ISO with 6D (or 5DIII), compared to 7D. If shooting RAW, the difference will be closer to one stop and, before you go to the extent of changing out camera and lenses, you might be better served investing in a noise reduction software such as Noiseware and spending some time reading this post by Teamspeed about getting quality high ISO performance out of 7D.

As to in-camera flashes... well they generally suck (not just on the 7D). They're terribly underpowered, in the worst possible place for redeye and ugly shadows, and they rapidly drain the camera's main battery(ies).

As to the new radio-triggered flashes and control module... Yes, that's correct. The ST-E3-RT is exclusive to use with the 600EX-RT and won't work with the earlier flashes. However, when Canon initially announced the new radio based system, I believe they also stated that IR-based versions (not "RT") of both ST-E3 and 600EX were going to be available, alongside the RT versions. Maybe that's only in limited markets or they are backtracking on it now. The US website and US retailers are only showing the RT models. No cameras have radio-based built-in flash control yet, either. Maybe they will eventually (tho I'd still rather just use a separate module).

Something else that's also lost with the ST-E3-RT is Focus Assist. The 600EX-RT flash can do it (it's a projected near IR grid)... but the control module has no means of doing Focus Assist.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigJilm
Member
218 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2010
Location: Idaho
     
Mar 02, 2013 10:35 as a reply to  @ amfoto1's post |  #11

I always shoot in RAW


Canon EOS 6D, 70-200 f/4L, 85mm f/1.8, 24-105 f/4L, 40mm pancake

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Versus78
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
97 posts
Joined Mar 2012
Location: Québec, Canada
     
Mar 03, 2013 11:12 |  #12

Lots of interesting input guys... I really feel I just had the "upgrade bug"... Now that I shaken that off, I think I will use the money I wanted to use toward the upgrade to replace my Sigma 10-20 with a Canon 10-22, and maybe even switch my 15-85 for a 24-105. Lots of people consider the 24-105 not wide enough for APS-C, but when I need to shoot wide I always have my UWA handy. That way, I will gain a bit of speed on my general purpose lens. WOuld that make sense?

Of course, getting a good prime for portait is on my list too...


Sebastien // Nikon D750 - Tokina 17-35mm PRO FX F4 - Nikon 24-120mm f/4 VR - Nikon 50mm f/1.8 AF-D - Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD - Yongnuo YN568EX

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Yogi ­ Bear
Goldmember
1,492 posts
Likes: 3
Joined Feb 2009
Location: League City, TX USA (Houston)
     
Mar 03, 2013 12:50 |  #13

Versus78 wrote in post #15671659 (external link)
Lots of interesting input guys... I really feel I just had the "upgrade bug"... Now that I shaken that off, I think I will use the money I wanted to use toward the upgrade to replace my Sigma 10-20 with a Canon 10-22, and maybe even switch my 15-85 for a 24-105. Lots of people consider the 24-105 not wide enough for APS-C, but when I need to shoot wide I always have my UWA handy. That way, I will gain a bit of speed on my general purpose lens. WOuld that make sense?

Of course, getting a good prime for portait is on my list too...

According to the review of the 15-85 on The Digital Picture:

The 15-85 IS is not a fast lens and has a variable maximum aperture. Here is how the max aperture step-down goes: from 15-17mm = f/3.5, 18-26mm = f/4.0, 27-37mm = f/4.5, 38-60mm = f/5.0 and from 61-85mm = f/5.6.

Full review here: http://www.the-digital-picture.com …6-IS-USM-Lens-Review.aspx (external link)
So, the "speed" advantage of the 24-105 is mostly a slight advantage and only becomes a full stop advantage at >61mm FLs.

If you are looking for speed. you may want to consider the Canon EF-S 17-55 mm f/2.8 IS USM lens which, as the name implies, has a constant f/2.8 aperture throughout the 17mm to 55mm FL range.


Canon EOS 7D | EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM | EF-S 55-250mm f/4.0-5.6 IS |
EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM | 250D | EF-S 10-22 mm f/3.5-4.5 USM | 580 EX II |

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Anthon
Senior Member
267 posts
Joined May 2012
     
Mar 03, 2013 16:26 as a reply to  @ Yogi Bear's post |  #14

I just went from crop to FF myself.

The biggest reason for me, was that I didn't want to buy EF-S glass. I love L glass - but buying it (especially zooms) makes no sense for crop bodies.
Also, most people are ready to pay so much extra for extra stop of aperture on a lens and then just mount in on a crop - cropped camera's just trow away about 1,2 stop of light by not using the corners. So you are getting 2,5 times less light from the same lens, if you mount it on cropped camera.

Actually, when you compare L to EF-S, there isn't that much difference in price either.
For instance, you can buy a Tokina 11-16 2.8 (or any ultra wide zoom) for crop and it would cost around 600 euro. You will get narrow zoom range, questionable built quality and just not the original pro L lens.
While you can pay 700 for 17-40 for FF and get everything 11-16 has, and just have a much better lens overall - superior built quality and weather sealing for example.
You might say 11-16 has a bigger aperture but it doesn't actually let more light to fall on the sensor!!!
Same goes for 17-55 2.8 IS vs 25-105 4 IS! 17-55 is bloody expensive for an EF-S lens!
And we aren't even talking about the difference in IQ of the sensor itself.

So consider it - do you want to buy cropped lenses, or do you want to invest in L? If you do want L, you have to switch to FF, IMHO.


Canon 5D mark II Gripped / 17-40mm f4 L / 24-105mm f4 L / Canon 70-200 f4 L / Samyang 14mm 2.8 AE / Pentax SMC 50mm f1.7 / Pentax SMC 28 2.8 / Canon Speedlite 600ex-rt / Canon Speedlite 580ex II / YN560 II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Sirrith
Cream of the Crop
10,545 posts
Gallery: 50 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 36
Joined Nov 2010
Location: Hong Kong
     
Mar 03, 2013 16:33 |  #15

Anthon wrote in post #15672670 (external link)
The biggest reason for me, was that I didn't want to buy EF-S glass. I love L glass - but buying it (especially zooms) makes no sense for crop bodies.
Also, most people are ready to pay so much extra for extra stop of aperture on a lens and then just mount in on a crop - cropped camera's just trow away about 1,2 stop of light by not using the corners. So you are getting 2,5 times less light from the same lens, if you mount it on cropped camera.

I used L lenses on my crop camera just fine. They were great. Also, you get the exact same exposure settings for FF or crop using the same lens in the same light. Sensor size does not feature in the exposure triangle.

The 6D is a very good camera. I have used one before and liked it a lot. But I needed better weather sealing and AF, so I went 5DIII. If I didn't need the AF, it would be very difficult to justify a 5DIII over the 6D, as the 6D produces better files.


-Tom
Flickr (external link)
F-Stop Guru review | RRS BH-40 review

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links (only for non-logged)

2,877 views & 0 likes for this thread, 11 members have posted to it.
Body & Glass upgrade!
FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Forums   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset   •  Home

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.58forum software
version 2.58 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is icebergchick
1401 guests, 163 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15,144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.