ETTL not the right setting?

all of my previous flash work was with a sunpak d422...

i would set my AE-1 or F1n to xsync (1/60th or 1/90th) and then set the flash to which ever f-stop i wanted based on shooting distance...

ive since been trying the 580exII with my 7d, and 5d3 and not getting much love...

ive tried shooting with Av (selecting usually about f4) or Tv (1/60 to 1/200) and ive seen ZERO difference in my images from shooting with ambient light. this is in the local hockey barn, which needs a bit of extra lighting so i dont have to shoot at ISO 3200...

should i start shooting in manual or take the flash out of ETTL?

i want to shoot some stuff with my 33" umbrellas but its as if the flash/camera is saying "you have enough ambient light, you knucklehead. you dont need any flash power" and when i go ahead and shoot it says "okay, we're going to go off but you wont see any improvement"...

I don't know about Tv, but in Av your flash will adjust power for fill, so that might be your problem.

In my experience, the best way to use flash in ETTL is to adjust set your preferred shutter, aperture and flash compensation in manual and allow the flash to figure out hjow best to light.

Ltdave wrote in post #15766342
all of my previous flash work was with a sunpak d422...

i would set my AE-1 or F1n to xsync (1/60th or 1/90th) and then set the flash to which ever f-stop i wanted based on shooting distance...

ive since been trying the 580exII with my 7d, and 5d3 and not getting much love...

ive tried shooting with Av (selecting usually about f4) or Tv (1/60 to 1/200) and ive seen ZERO difference in my images from shooting with ambient light. this is in the local hockey barn, which needs a bit of extra lighting so i dont have to shoot at ISO 3200...

should i start shooting in manual or take the flash out of ETTL?

i want to shoot some stuff with my 33" umbrellas but its as if the flash/camera is saying "you have enough ambient light, you knucklehead. you dont need any flash power" and when i go ahead and shoot it says "okay, we're going to go off but you wont see any improvement"...

You need to get out of AV. ETTL defaults to fill flash by its nature. It strives to expose as if the flash isnt there and only fills shadow in AV mode. By putting the camera in M, and the flash in ETTL it begins to work more like the flash did in the old FD mount days.

thanks guys...

im headed back to the books...

In aperture and shutter speed priority modes the camera will still try to set the proper exposure without taking the flash into account.

I'd also suggest using manual mode. Set your shutter speed, aperture, and iso to what you want then let the flash do the heavy lifting. ETTL has its own quarks. You'll need to adjust flash exposure compensation depending on the scene (amount of black or white in the scene).

gremlin75 wrote in post #15767674
In aperture and shutter speed priority modes the camera will still try to set the proper exposure without taking the flash into account.

I'd also suggest using manual mode. Set your shutter speed, aperture, and iso to what you want then let the flash do the heavy lifting. ETTL has its own quarks. You'll need to adjust flash exposure compensation depending on the scene (amount of black or white in the scene).

so i can go with 1/125 (just because) and f5.6 (like i used to set on my sunpak) and the flash will provide the proper exposure based on its pre-flash evaluation of the light? i set the flash in manual mode?

i like the way Weegee used to shoot his graflex. f16 and 1/200" and a flash bulb. i want something simple like that...

Ltdave wrote in post #15819144
so i can go with 1/125 (just because) and f5.6 (like i used to set on my sunpak) and the flash will provide the proper exposure based on its pre-flash evaluation of the light? i set the flash in manual mode?

Yes, go to M mode at 1/125, f/5.6 and proper ISO. The flash will fire a pre-flash and set it accordingly (no matter if bounced or not). That's using ETTL, not manual.

In manual mode you need to determine the proper flash exposure. Good for studio and a known flash distance.

Ltdave wrote in post #15819144
so i can go with 1/125 (just because) and f5.6 (like i used to set on my sunpak) and the flash will provide the proper exposure based on its pre-flash evaluation of the light? i set the flash in manual mode?

i like the way Weegee used to shoot his graflex. f16 and 1/200" and a flash bulb. i want something simple like that...

You can do that. but with the benefits of ETTL why would you? Using that system for manual flash you have to be certain of your distance.

Take a minute to evaluate your situation and how you want flash to help.
If, when using flash in ETTL mode, it is not contributing as much light as you want, then you can change the flash exposure metering bias using Flash Exposure Compensation. It works with the speedlite the same way Exposure Compensation works with ambient camera exposure metering in Av or Tv modes.

Its like any other situation where there are two light sources. Each has to be considered and exposure adjusted based on how we want them to contribute to overall lighting.

gonzogolf wrote in post #15819485
You can do that. but with the benefits of ETTL why would you? Using that system for manual flash you have to be certain of your distance.

because using ETTL and AV or TV has not given me anywhere close to what ive wanted...

Ltdave wrote in post #15820988
because using ETTL and AV or TV has not given me anywhere close to what ive wanted...

Use ETTL and manual in the camera.

Can you please post examples? Are you trying to light the entire scene with the flash or just a subject in the middle? Do you have flash metering set to average or evaluative? Are you certain that the flash fired?

For those of you saying that Av uses the flash as 'fill', isn't this only at higher EVs (10+)? And even so, you always have the option of EC and FEC, as David pointed out.

ETTL is based on an algorithm and so is entirely predictable. It's just unfortunate that we don't what that algorithm is with any great certainty.

frugivore wrote in post #15821155
For those of you saying that Av uses the flash as 'fill', isn't this only at higher EVs (10+)? And even so, you always have the option of EC and FEC, as David pointed out.

It is well proven that there is only ONE flash output metering algorithm, so that there is only ONE output amount from the flash, regardless if it is main source or fill source of light, irregardless of Tv vs. Av vs. P vs. M!

What fundamentally makes the light 'fill' rather than 'main' is accomplished by the photographer regulating the metering via FEC minus or FEC plus values.

There is a not widely known program in the Canon dSLR which does alter the capture of ambient light, based upon the level of the ambient light, a phenomenon known as NEVEC, and another one even less known with the name AFR.
https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=15698489&po​stcount=32
As a result, But we have the phenomenon that, where I used to inherently know the contrast ratio resulting from a certain flash setting vs. my ambient light, that is no longer a fixed and constant relationship! My lighting contrast ratio is actually variable, where it used to be more an understood and photographer-controllable relationship when we used manual equipment. But with AFR and NEVEC, somewhat unpredictable results occur for contrast ratio.