Anybody here use a box brownie ??

OK, in a mad attempt to show that a photographer can still produce good images without all the fancy schmancy toys, I have found myself in possession of a 1920's Box Brownie no.2.

I have found a manual online in PDF format, so have figured out the operation of it pretty much, so that should be OK. However, the exposure side of things is a bit, erm, vague. I don't really want to waste film and processing just to figure out the exposures so I was hoping somebody might have an idea.

Basically, I have 3 apertures ("largest", "middle" and "smallest") and two shutter speeds ("snapshot" and "time exposure" - bulb to us). The manual states that for snapshots the "largest" aperture should always be used unless shooting a very bright scene in strong sunlight, when the "middle" aperture can be used. The "smallest" aperture is only for time exposures. The manual also has a chart of times to use with the time exposure setting when shooting indoors (so I'm guessing this isn't a great camera for shooting the kids).

So, I can follow that OK, outdoors use the largest aperture unless sunny, when I switch to the medium, pretty simple so far. The problem is, the manual simply refers to "the film" and the film size (120). Nowhere does it give any indication of the sensitivity of the film that they are talking about. Given that I can get 120 film in anything from 25 to 1600 ASA/ISO (a 6 stop range) having some sort of idea which gives the required exposure would be useful.

I realise that exposure isn't going to be that precise, with just 2 effective apertures and one shutter speed in normal use, but having a suitable film speed would help. I am assuming that it will probably be between 100 and 400 ASA/ISO but if anybody has used one of these tin shoeboxes, I would appreciate any help and advice to getting the best out of them.

I realise some experimentation will be involved to get the feel of using it and I will be relying very much on the latitude in the film a lot of the time, but shortening the experimentation period will be nice.

So, if you can guide me on the film speed to buy for it, that would be great. If you know what the apertures equate to in regular f/stops, and / or what shutter speed "snapshot" is, that would also be really helpfull.

Thanks in advance.

Oh, one more thing. I know that it has fixed focus, so I don't have to mess around with that, but does anyone know (roughly) the minimum focus distance?? I don't want to waste film by being too close to my subjects.

When in doubt follow the sunny 16 rule and bracket.

I think you have just proved that gear does indeed matter... to a point. " Its not the camera, its the photographer" is only a half truth.

Not 100% on this, but I think when the camera was made, film speed was 100ASA or less for the general public. I'd go with 50ASA, or 100ASA. Although 25ASA is nice in the right circumstances.

Also, keep in mind that the Sunny 16 rule is based on 100ASA.

This link may help: http://www.brownie-camera.com

Just a quick look, shutter speed is probably 40th to 50th of a second and f stops are probably f11 f16 and f22.

Naturalist wrote in post #15860338
When in doubt follow the sunny 16 rule and bracket.

Easier said than done, unfortunately. It's hard to follow sunny 16 when you don't know what your aperture or shutter speed actually is, and bracketing is tricky at best when I have only got two different exposure levels. The best I can do is use both apertures, but at around £2 ($3) per shot it's going to be expensive having too many unusable.

Mark1 wrote in post #15860360
I think you have just proved that gear does indeed matter... to a point. " Its not the camera, its the photographer" is only a half truth.

Well, this thing hasn't got my 5D3 quaking in it's boots that's for sure. I have always been of the opinion that, whilst better gear allows shots that you cannot get with basic gear, a good photographer should be able to get good images out of any gear, so long as they have an open hand. Naturally, if I had to do any form of bird, wildlife, sport, low light photography etc., the box brownie would suck. However, given a free hand, I should be able to play to it's strengths, and avoid its weaknesses, to come up with some pleasing images which have a character to them that I won't get with a DSLR.

KirkS518 wrote in post #15860380
Not 100% on this, but I think when the camera was made, film speed was 100ASA or less for the general public. I'd go with 50ASA, or 100ASA. Although 25ASA is nice in the right circumstances.

Also, keep in mind that the Sunny 16 rule is based on 100ASA.

Thanks for that, I was thinking around 100 or 125 was the likeliest. I may play with some 25 ASA and the "time exposure" in low light conditions to get some moody shots with motion blur.

I don't think Sunny 16 is based on any specific ASA though, as you use the shutter speed reciprocal to the ASA, so it works for any film speed. In good sunlight it is f/16 at 1/ASA, so 100 ASA would be 1/100th and 400 ASA would need 1/400th etc.

But like I say, I don't see how I can use Sunny 16 in this case as shutter speed is unknown (and fixed) and the three apertures are unknown as well. If I used Sunny 16 to figure out the aperture and shutter speed I needed, I couldn't set them anyway.


Many thanks for your help so far guys.

You are right. The Sunny 16 rule is predated by this camera. The rule is meaningless unless you have known controls and are able to adjust them. If I remember right there is only one shutter speed that you can not adjust.

And thinking back to Photo classes.... 1920's film...Orthochromatic films were like 20 and 30ASA. Panchromatic film was like 10 and 15ASA

Seems like I was way off. In my defense, I wasn't around back then, so it was a WAG...

I wasn't aware when the S16 came about, either....

breal101 wrote in post #15860440
This link may help: http://www.brownie-camera.com

Just a quick look, shutter speed is probably 40th to 50th of a second and f stops are probably f11 f16 and f22.

Ah, that's very helpful, thanks. I had found a few box brownie web pages and tutorials but none that gave that information. Mine is an "F", so should have (or once had) the 1/50th shutter and, according to the site, the apertures that you quoted. The only thing is, looking at the apertures (easy to do as they are just holes punched in a metal slide, that you move across the front of the lens) the biggest seems to be noticeably more than twice the diameter of the smallest.

Anyway, I'll take those as the basis for the first roll of film (all 8 shots or so of it) and use 100 /125 ASA film. So, using sunny 16, that should give me all three apertures to use (as they likely based the instructions on 50 ASA) with the smallest in bright sunlight to the largest in overcast conditions.

I'll keep a record of apertures used, compared to a lightmeter reading, and hopefully be close enough to be well inside the latitude of the film. The data should allow me to have a better idea of which aperture to use when from the second roll onwards.

Happy to help. I learned something too. I was under the impression that these cameras used 620 film, 120 is so much better because you won't have to re-spool.
Sounds like you have a plan, exposure error with film should go to the over side. Some people will tell you plus or minus 2 stops but actually the image degrades noticeably after 1 stop of underexposure.

Have fun!

Wanted to add that later Kodak fixed focus cameras were set approximately for 8-10 feet to infinity. I don't know if that applies to your camera.

Mark1 wrote in post #15860497
You are right. The Sunny 16 rule is predated by this camera. The rule is meaningless unless you have known controls and are able to adjust them. If I remember right there is only one shutter speed that you can not adjust.

And thinking back to Photo classes.... 1920's film...Orthochromatic films were like 20 and 30ASA. Panchromatic film was like 10 and 15ASA

Yeah, just the one shutter speed (plus bulb, by putting a lever across that stops the shutter closing until you move it out of the way). Although, looking at it, it may be possible to come up with a faster shutter speed, as the "shutter" is simply a disc that spins, moving a roughly 2cm hole across the shutter. Logic would suggest that covering half the hole would halve the shutter speed, giving me 1/100th (etc.). I may play with that at some point.

Those film speeds sound logical to me. The instructions say use the largest aperture (probably f/11 going by the info in the link that breal101 posted) at all times except very bright scenes in strong sunlight. In those cases, use the middle aperture (probably f/16 and at 1/50th sunny 16 would be correct for 50ASA in strong sunlight, but the instructions go beyond that suggesting beach or snow scenes in strong sunlight - so 20-30 ASA seems right). The booklet says never to use the smallest aperture except for time exposures, but using something like FP4 (125ASA) should bring it into play, giving me a little more control.

So, thanks to this forum, I at least now have an idea of shutter speed, aperture and the film speed the manual was using as a reference. That should be a real help in judging which film to get, and which aperture to use (with a possibly slightly modified sunny 16 system).

KirkS518 wrote in post #15860512
Seems like I was way off. In my defense, I wasn't around back then, so it was a WAG...

I wasn't aware when the S16 came about, either....

Yeah, no problem. I am going to be using a fair bit of guesswork myself learning how to get the best out of this tin box.

breal101 wrote in post #15860584
Happy to help. I learned something too. I was under the impression that these cameras used 620 film, 120 is so much better because you won't have to re-spool.
Sounds like you have a plan, exposure error with film should go to the over side. Some people will tell you plus or minus 2 stops but actually the image degrades noticeably after 1 stop of underexposure.

Have fun!

Yeah, the only thing is, it takes 6x9 cm images which significantly cuts down on the number of shots on a roll. I have used 120 in other cameras in the past, from an old Rollei TLR (6x6 cm - 12 shots) to a more modern Mamiya M645 (6x4.5cm so getting 15 shots on a roll). Of course, they both had proper shutter speed and aperture settings and good screen visibilty. This tin box uses waist level finders that are about 10x15 mm in size, they are tiny - I can hardly see what I am pointing at.

I have to admit, I am really looking forward to playing with this thing. Although I grew up on film, and had my own darkroom, I haven't shot anything but digital for about 9 years now and never used anything this basic. It's time to go retro, big time.

breal101 wrote in post #15860584
Wanted to add that later Kodak fixed focus cameras were set approximately for 8-10 feet to infinity. I don't know if that applies to your camera.

Ah, right, thanks. I'll use that as a starting point for experimentation. I don't want to waste half a roll of film by getting too close. I am (roughly) estimating the lens to be about 60mm focal length, based on the smallest aperture looking to be around 2.5 to 3mm and the assumption that is f/22. So, that is wide angle, but not so wide I will have to get in real close with a decent sized subject. My mental arithmetic isn't going to cope with working out the 35mm equivalent, but the negs are going to be in the region of 6 times the area of a FF sensor I would think, so my 5D3 has a very significant crop factor relatively speaking.