Wireless Flash help.

Dear forum members,

A newbie here, got into photography recently, know a lot already though and looking forward to learn even more advanced photography skills here.

One small problem I have is when I use wireless flash (on ETTL mode) and shoot flash from not on camera wirelessly the flash seems to fire way too strong. Everything is overexposed.
If I fire flash from on camera instead flash metering works just fine.
Any deas why it is so and how to correct way too strong flash (except flash exposure compensation as I think I am doing something wrong, the flash metering should work no?)

P.S. Using Canon 60D and Canon 430EX speedlite.

Thanks a lot.

Make sure you always start with your FEC (flash exposure compensation) set to "0" for both your camera and your individual Speedlites whether being used "ON" camera in the Normal configuration or in the wireless system in the Slave configuration.. When your flash is "ON" camera any FEC dialed into the flash will over ride any FEC dialed into the camera but if you zero the FEC in the flash then any FEC dialed into the camera will now be recognized. When using the wireless system any FEC dialed into the camera or Master flash is a global FEC affecting all the Slave flashes equally (as long as flash limits are not exceeded) but any FEC dialed into an individual Slave flash only affects that individual flash and is in addition to ( not in lieu of ) any global FEC.

It sounds to me like you could possibly have FEC dialed into both your camera and your Speedlite and they are contradicting each other in the different configurations. If you have + 1/3 FEC dialed into the flash and say +2 or +3 FEC dialed into the camera then when the flash is "ON" camera the FEC dialed into the flash will over ride the FEC dialed into the camera and ETTL will appear to be working normally but then remove the flash and set it to Slave and now the FEC dialed into the camera will be the global FEC and any FEC dialed into the Slave flash will be added or subtracted from that. If you have + 1/3 FEC dialed into the flash and +2 dialed into the camera then when using the flash "ON" camera you will have an FEC of + 1/3. Now remove the flash and make it a Slave in the wireless system and you will have a +2 1/3 FEC ( +2 global FEC set in the camera plus the + 1/3 FEC dialed into the Slave flash ). In this situation ETTL will appear to be normal when using the flash "ON" camera but it will over expose when used in the wireless configuration.

agv8or wrote in post #16044183
Make sure you always start with your FEC (flash exposure compensation) set to "0" for both your camera and your individual Speedlites whether being used "ON" camera in the Normal configuration or in the wireless system in the Slave configuration.. When your flash is "ON" camera any FEC dialed into the flash will over ride any FEC dialed into the camera but if you zero the FEC in the flash then any FEC dialed into the camera will now be recognized. When using the wireless system any FEC dialed into the camera or Master flash is a global FEC affecting all the Slave flashes equally (as long as flash limits are not exceeded) but any FEC dialed into an individual Slave flash only affects that individual flash and is in addition to ( not in lieu of ) any global FEC.

It sounds to me like you could possibly have FEC dialed into both your camera and your Speedlite and they are contradicting each other in the different configurations. If you have + 1/3 FEC dialed into the flash and say +2 or +3 FEC dialed into the camera then when the flash is "ON" camera the FEC dialed into the flash will over ride the FEC dialed into the camera and ETTL will appear to be working normally but then remove the flash and set it to Slave and now the FEC dialed into the camera will be the global FEC and any FEC dialed into the Slave flash will be added or subtracted from that. If you have + 1/3 FEC dialed into the flash and +2 dialed into the camera then when using the flash "ON" camera you will have an FEC of + 1/3. Now remove the flash and make it a Slave in the wireless system and you will have a +2 1/3 FEC ( +2 global FEC set in the camera plus the + 1/3 FEC dialed into the Slave flash ). In this situation ETTL will appear to be normal when using the flash "ON" camera but it will over expose when used in the wireless configuration.

Thanks for the help.
Yeah I learned something new and important and will consider that in my next wireless flash setups.

So basiclly as long as I get my FEC right, ETTL mode of flash even when using wireless should work more or less right yes in terms of calculationg the right amount of flash output needed?

Van Gogh wrote in post #16044948
Thanks for the help.
Yeah I learned something new and important and will consider that in my next wireless flash setups.

So basiclly as long as I get my FEC right, ETTL mode of flash even when using wireless should work more or less right yes in terms of calculationg the right amount of flash output needed?

So was that your problem or are you still having issues with over exposure in the Wireless configuration? Another thought that went through my head: I am assuming you are using the popup flash on the 60D as the Master and the 430EX as the Slave. Maybe the popup flash is contributing too much. In the situation that you describe it sounds like an FEC issue now if you had an over exposure with the flash "ON" camera or using an "Off Shoe" ETTL cord then I would also consider that you are not making a good connection.

I guess I am not following your logic of how you assume ETTL works so your question of "should work more or less if you get your FEC right?" I am not understanding exactly what you asking.

agv8or wrote in post #16045189
So was that your problem or are you still having issues with over exposure in the Wireless configuration? Another thought that went through my head: I am assuming you are using the popup flash on the 60D as the Master and the 430EX as the Slave. Maybe the popup flash is contributing too much. In the situation that you describe it sounds like an FEC issue now if you had an over exposure with the flash "ON" camera or using an "Off Shoe" ETTL cord then I would also consider that you are not making a good connection.

I guess I am not following your logic of how you assume ETTL works so your question of "should work more or less if you get your FEC right?" I am not understanding exactly what you asking.

Well wireless flash has multiple options I can choose from. Weather I want only slave to fire or both of them to fire and their ratios of light contribution. I choose the option that only slave fires, pop up still fires but I think its for connecting and metering purposes only.

My FEC is set to 0 on wireless flash and on camera flash(pop up is not even asking as I don't want it to fire) but the flash fires just way too strong. Doesnt make sense as its on ETTL mode and it should have calculated right amount of output. Its strong even when I am bouncing it off the ceilong. Weird. When speeligt is on camera it works perfectly on ETTL mode, no overexposure. And I will mention again all FEC are set to 0.

I am gonna try firing them both now and play with their ratios (both pop up and slave) and see if it gives me differrent results.

( You stated you have only the Slave flash set to fire wireless and not the flash + popup so the popup is not contributing it is just firing preflash command signals to the Slave(s) ). I guess my next question then since we have eliminated the popup flash is do you have Wireless func. "Firing Group" set to "All" or "A:B"? If it is set to "A:B" then you are in ratio's and you may have the Slave group of your Slave flash ratio set higher. When you state " flash fires just way too strong" how much is way to strong? Is it over exposing by a stop or more? Can you lower the Slave flash output with - FEC dialed into the camera?

agv8or wrote in post #16045727
( You stated you have only the Slave flash set to fire wireless and not the flash + popup so the popup is not contributing it is just firing preflash command signals to the Slave(s) ). I guess my next question then since we have eliminated the popup flash is do you have Wireless func. "Firing Group" set to "All" or "A:B"? If it is set to "A:B" then you are in ratio's and you may have the Slave group of your Slave flash ratio set higher. When you state " flash fires just way too strong" how much is way to strong? Is it over exposing by a stop or more? Can you lower the Slave flash output with - FEC dialed into the camera?

Its set to firing group (All). No ratios A:B. (A:B ratios needed if I have mutiple slaves I beleive no)

What I mean by strong is its noticebly bright, doesn look natural when bounced. When bounced it looks overexposed by about 1.5 stops, but when fired straight its so bright that the object is almost plain white lol.

Sounds like the problem at least early 7D cameras had, especially when using FEL with wireless remote flashes. But also think about that it's the camera doing the metering. If the remote flash illuminates the side of a person, for example, then the camera may consider the majority of the image being pretty dark, except for a narrow rim along that person's side. It may the increase exposure heavily, trying to make the illuminated rim average out the rest of the image.

You must post images that you consider wrong, so we can see.

apersson850 wrote in post #16046005
Sounds like the problem at least early 7D cameras had, especially when using FEL with wireless remote flashes. But also think about that it's the camera doing the metering. If the remote flash illuminates the side of a person, for example, then the camera may consider the majority of the image being pretty dark, except for a narrow rim along that person's side. It may the increase exposure heavily, trying to make the illuminated rim average out the rest of the image.

You must post images that you consider wrong, so we can see.

I think I start understanding why its happening now, but need more clarification please.

Lets say my ideal camera exposure (without flash) is 1/30, f3.5, ISO 400.
I get this exposure indication in Av mode, and also in M mode I see this is where my exposure is right.

Now the things is when I shoot in Av priority mode, when i turn camera pop up flash on, shutter goes to 1/60 say as flash increases light overall. But if I shoot on camera M mode, the on camera metering systems hints me that ideal exposure is still at previous metered 1/30 sec rather than 1/60 as calculkated if camera was in Av mode (which also makes sense, flash adds light, so shutter should increase). It feels like on M mode camera doesnt even know that there is flash now and thats why shutter needs to be decreased.

I gave an example on pop up flash, but Speedlight is exactly the same happening, both on camera and off.

Why so on M mode camera metering is wrong when flash is used and doesnt account for flash light in its metering ?

P.S> A couple of wireless flash examples, left is fired direct on their faces, right one is more or less bounce flash, u guys can see from where.

Van Gogh wrote in post #16045942
Its set to firing group (All). No ratios A:B. (A:B ratios needed if I have mutiple slaves I beleive no)

What I mean by strong is its noticebly bright, doesn look natural when bounced. When bounced it looks overexposed by about 1.5 stops, but when fired straight its so bright that the object is almost plain white lol.

Sorry I could not help but I am out of answers. Sold my 60D and all my 430EX's a few months ago so I cannot even try to recreate this scenario. Good luck!

agv8or wrote in post #16046631
Sorry I could not help but I am out of answers. Sold my 60D and all my 430EX's a few months ago so I cannot even try to recreate this scenario. Good luck!

Read my above comment. My on camera metering doesnt work properly when on M mode. It says ideal exposure is same as if there was no flash used at all. Wereas if I am on Av mode, it automatically logically increases shutter speed.

Here is what happens with my camera metering,

No flash ideal exposure 1/30 sec, 400 ISO, f3.5 (both in M and Av mode)

Av metering with flash 1/60 sec, 400ISO, f3.5

M metering with flash 1/30 sec, 400ISO, f 3.5. M says ideal exposure is basically the same as without the flash before, why?

The meter in the camera is a reflective meter. it meters light bouncing off the subject. It cannot meter light that the flash has not produced yet. It does not take into account that you have a flash.

Look in your custom functions of the camera and you will probably find that it is set to lock exposure between 1/60 and max sync speed when in AV and there is a flash. There is 3 choices. Lock at max sync speed. Keep it between 1/60 and max sync speed and no limits.

The fact that a flash is involved triggers these limits. It has nothing to do with the camera meter. When using flash you have to consider two exposures. One for ambient and then another for flash. Them balance the two for the result that you want.

Van Gogh wrote in post #16046635
Read my above comment. My on camera metering doesnt work properly when on M mode. It says ideal exposure is same as if there was no flash used at all. Wereas if I am on Av mode, it automatically logically increases shutter speed.

Here is what happens with my camera metering,

No flash ideal exposure 1/30 sec, 400 ISO, f3.5 (both in M and Av mode)

Av metering with flash 1/60 sec, 400ISO, f3.5

M metering with flash 1/30 sec, 400ISO, f 3.5. M says ideal exposure is basically the same as without the flash before, why?

You need to change your custom setting to "Auto" to get the shutter speed slower than 1/60 sec. Your camera is working just the way that you have it configured.

agv8or wrote in post #16046701
You need to change your custom setting to "Auto" to get the shutter speed slower than 1/60 sec. Your camera is working just the way that you have it configured.

I think mine is set to auto (checked it and yes its on auto, the right one). Besides, in Av mode It can tell me it needs time all the way to 30 seconds if its dark enough even with flash on, so its on auto mode.

Check it. I bet if it says it needs 30 seconds and you have a flash mounted, when you press the shutter half way the shutter speed will change to 1/60th.