Wireless Flash help.

dedsen wrote in post #16046845
Check it. I bet if it says it needs 30 seconds and you have a flash mounted, when you press the shutter half way the shutter speed will change to 1/60th.

Yeah just went to custom setting and set it to Auto (it was on Auto actually).

So to summarize my problem, basically anytime I use any flash (wireless or on top mounted or even pop up flash) and shoot in M mode, my camera meter chooses right exposure to be shutter speed as if there was no flash there at all. Basically in Av mode shutter is faster (makes sense) than in suggested by camera what right exposure is to be M mode.

I've written a tutorial on how to use Canon's wireless flash system. There's a link in my signature.

What you've found is correct. Using E-TTL II, flash metering happens just before normal exposure. It works by sending out a test flash to see how well the flash is able to illuminate the subject. Prior to that test flash, the camera has no way of knowing how much your flash will be able to contribute to the illumination of your scene. For all it knows, the flash may be able to properly illuminate your scene using only a fraction of full power, or it may not be able to make any change at all, even at full power. This is even more pronounced if the flash is a remote one, tucked away somewhere to the side of the subject. The camera has no way of knowing if you even aimed your remote flash towards the subject or not, prior to firing the test flash.

Since the metering of ambient light takes place before firing the test flash, it has to totally disregard your flash. Well, as you have already found, it doesn't do that, since depending on your exposure mode, it may adjust a bit to make use of the flash possible.
But in M mode, it's up to you. By selecting a combination of aperture and exposure time you select how much you want to suppress the ambient light in your picture, something which in turn will determine how large a portion of the total illumination the flash will provide. Centering the meter will provide what the camera considers to be standard exposure already without the flash. Thus adding ever so little more light will give you an overexposed image. Since this is M mode, it's up to you to decide how much you want to underexpose ambient, when providing some space for the added light from the flash.

If you use Av or Tv, the camera will reduce the exposure of the ambient by about one stop, taking a chance that the flash will be able to fill in the lacking part. It may or may not, but it can't know until flash metering has been executed.

apersson850 wrote in post #16047525
What you've found is correct. Using E-TTL II, flash metering happens just before normal exposure. It works by sending out a test flash to see how well the flash is able to illuminate the subject. Prior to that test flash, the camera has no way of knowing how much your flash will be able to contribute to the illumination of your scene. For all it knows, the flash may be able to properly illuminate your scene using only a fraction of full power, or it may not be able to make any change at all, even at full power. This is even more pronounced if the flash is a remote one, tucked away somewhere to the side of the subject. The camera has no way of knowing if you even aimed your remote flash towards the subject or not, prior to firing the test flash.

Since the metering of ambient light takes place before firing the test flash, it has to totally disregard your flash. Well, as you have already found, it doesn't do that, since depending on your exposure mode, it may adjust a bit to make use of the flash possible.
But in M mode, it's up to you. By selecting a combination of aperture and exposure time you select how much you want to suppress the ambient light in your picture, something which in turn will determine how large a portion of the total illumination the flash will provide. Centering the meter will provide what the camera considers to be standard exposure already without the flash. Thus adding ever so little more light will give you an overexposed image. Since this is M mode, it's up to you to decide how much you want to underexpose ambient, when providing some space for the added light from the flash.

If you use Av or Tv, the camera will reduce the exposure of the ambient by about one stop, taking a chance that the flash will be able to fill in the lacking part. It may or may not, but it can't know until flash metering has been executed.

Well thanks very much, now everything makes sense finally. The whole idea is that even if I use Av mode (and especially if I use M mode) I still have to use my LCD to check the image and see if the ambient, flash exposures I get are satisfying.

Damn, using the flash makes photography even more complex.

Well, if you in M mode learn to underexpose a bit (as much as you like - it depends on how much you want ambient in the background stand out to the flash illuminated foreground), then you'll have that pretty much under control. Next step is to get familiar with how E-TTL II works, so that you intuitively will know in most cases if you need to crank flash exposure up or down a bit, to get the image you want.

Once you get familiar with it, it's not as difficult as it may sound.

apersson850 wrote in post #16048437
Well, if you in M mode learn to underexpose a bit (as much as you like - it depends on how much you want ambient in the background stand out to the flash illuminated foreground), then you'll have that pretty much under control. Next step is to get familiar with how E-TTL II works, so that you intuitively will know in most cases if you need to crank flash exposure up or down a bit, to get the image you want.

Once you get familiar with it, it's not as difficult as it may sound.

Thanks for help.
Yeah I actually have theoretical good idea now. When using M mode, I will have to double my shutter speed (underexpose by a 1 stop) and that will be a good starting point.
Than play with shutter speeds further and FEC in ETTL mode to get desired overall exposure and flash/ambient correlation.

I think I got it ight no?

P.S. Av is easier (and also against most people beleives I beleive its still full manual mode)but i want to learn to shoot in M mode as I beleive it will benefit me more in the long term, I can already feel it gives me more control.

A good starting point, yes. Av is of course not manual, since the camera determines, and sets, the setting you need to get a standard exposure.

apersson850 wrote in post #16051335
A good starting point, yes. Av is of course not manual, since the camera determines, and sets, the setting you need to get a standard exposure.

But you can always tweak even shutter speed and say underexpose even in Av mode and get the desired look you want no? thats why I thing its still manual.

But I thing when M would really be usefull when u are in an environment where lighting doesn't change much and u want full control and knowing what u want. (say in a night club where environment doesnt change or portrait shoots where u have lots of time to compose).

I guess its really hard for me to see much differrance between Av and M as in both u can get exposures you want, and Av at least has an advantage that you start tweaking your exposure from the camera suggested "standard" exposure.

The difference is in that in Av, the camera will follow when the intensity of the light changes. In M it will not. The fact that you can tell the camera that you want a darker or lighter exposure in an automatic mode doesn't change the fact that it adapts to the ambient light automatically.

apersson850 wrote in post #16059821
The difference is in that in Av, the camera will follow when the intensity of the light changes. In M it will not. The fact that you can tell the camera that you want a darker or lighter exposure in an automatic mode doesn't change the fact that it adapts to the ambient light automatically.

Ok I get it but why would you not want the camera to adapt to the ambient light automatically?

In case it actually doesn't adapt to the lighting itself, but to different reflectivity of the subject. Or get fooled by a spotlight.

I'm a terrible human being and haven't read through the whole thread, but the description you give sounds exactly like your flash is firing at 1/1 because it (your wireless or wired setup) doesn't do E-TTL. For example, I have a sync cable that doesn't do E-TTL. If I try to shoot in E-TTL, it fires at full power everytime if I recall correctly.

Another thought here. If you're dealing primarily with scenarios where the light really isn't changing much at all, using the flash manually really is the way to go.

Van Gogh wrote in post #16043989
Dear forum members,

A newbie here, got into photography recently, know a lot already though and looking forward to learn even more advanced photography skills here.

One small problem I have is when I use wireless flash (on ETTL mode) and shoot flash from not on camera wirelessly the flash seems to fire way too strong. Everything is overexposed.
If I fire flash from on camera instead flash metering works just fine.
Any deas why it is so and how to correct way too strong flash (except flash exposure compensation as I think I am doing something wrong, the flash metering should work no?)

P.S. Using Canon 60D and Canon 430EX speedlite.

Thanks a lot.

Van Gogh wrote in post #16059914
Ok I get it but why would you not want the camera to adapt to the ambient light automatically?

If the camera and flash are both in auto modes like AV, then you could find that the strength of ambient relative to flash changes as the camera adjusts its settings to compensate for changes in ambient.

Hey guys one question.
I ordered 3 pairs of stofens, and 1 of them was colour blue.
For what lighting is that one for? (the other 2 were white and yellow obviously)

It's to correct for colour balance.