Question on shooting BIF in manual exposure mode

First let me say that I shoot mostly in manual or AV exposure mode, but really prefer the manual mode. Sorry guys, but I'm definitely going to show my ignorance with the following question?

I am currently shooting with a Canon 5D III and love the camera. However when shooting in the manual exposure mode, I like to set my shutter speed for 1/1500 to 1/2000 sec, and my aperature for f/5.6 to f/8.0. I would very much like to be able to set my ISO to the auto setting and allow it to select. In other words, I want the ISO to be my only variable. This works fine, except that it gives me no control when it comes to over or under exposure compensation.....I cannot preset the camera to over or under expose an image. With BIF snow geese for example, I will under expose by a full stop (when shooting in AV mode) in order to get proper detail and not blow out the white birds. The opposite is true with dark birds such a blackbirds. In that case I want to be able to over expose by at least a full f/stop in order to get at least some detail (eyes for example) out of the black colors of the birds.

In the manual shooting mode, I have not been able to figure out a way to do this (set the camera for over or under exposure in advance), and no one at the camera shop is able to help. With the 5D III, I am able to designate the large quick control dial as the means of selecting my ISO and this does help, but it's not what I'm actually looking for. I simply want to shoot in the manual mode, preset my aperature and shutter speed, put the ISO in auto select, and be able to over or under expose by an f/stop or two. If it's possibe, some one please tell me how to do it.

I am told that with Nikon DSLR's, you can accomplish what I am trying to do. Is that true?

As I understand it, there is no way to use auto ISO in "manual" and still get to use EC. If you want to use EC then you need to set the ISO yourself, and use either Av or Tv.

However, if you shoot manual (and I mean proper manual, where you set ISO, aperture and shutter yourself) you simply need to take a light reading and set appropriate values for those parameters. You don't need EC because you have set exposure according to the light on the subject already, the camera won't alter it for a black bird or a white bird, so you don't need EC to compensate.

You will notice the exposure needle moving above and below the centre mark, as the meter tells you what it believes to be the "correct" exposure. You can therefore easily see when your settings are the same as you would get by setting -1 EC by aiming to put the meter on 1 stop "underexposed", just flip aperture, shutter speed or ISO to get it where you want it. Personally, I would just take a light reading and adjust from that, I may well take a test shot of a light or dark bird and check the histogram to make sure I am not clipping the detail.

But, no, you can't set M, auto ISO and use EC. Simply choose another auto mode, or go manual.

Thanks, sandpiper.....excellen​t explanation. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly.

sandpiper wrote in post #16078763
As I understand it, there is no way to use auto ISO in "manual" and still get to use EC. If you want to use EC then you need to set the ISO yourself, and use either Av or Tv.

However, if you shoot manual (and I mean proper manual, where you set ISO, aperture and shutter yourself) you simply need to take a light reading and set appropriate values for those parameters. You don't need EC because you have set exposure according to the light on the subject already, the camera won't alter it for a black bird or a white bird, so you don't need EC to compensate.

You will notice the exposure needle moving above and below the centre mark, as the meter tells you what it believes to be the "correct" exposure. You can therefore easily see when your settings are the same as you would get by setting -1 EC by aiming to put the meter on 1 stop "underexposed", just flip aperture, shutter speed or ISO to get it where you want it. Personally, I would just take a light reading and adjust from that, I may well take a test shot of a light or dark bird and check the histogram to make sure I am not clipping the detail.

But, no, you can't set M, auto ISO and use EC. Simply choose another auto mode, or go manual.

Excellent response and kudos to you for taking the time to explain it in detail.

It would be nice if we could do auto ISO with EC in manual mode because the camera can adjust the settings for ISO faster than I can.
I too shoot manual with auto ISO and love it except when it comes to very difficult conditions like birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them, in and out of shadows.
Its near impossible to adjust the ISO fast enough when the birds do this and you only get ONE shot at the bird.
I guess thats what makes wildlife photography fun. Its not easy but not completely impossible.

jhayesvw wrote in post #16080891
It would be nice if we could do auto ISO with EC in manual mode because the camera can adjust the settings for ISO faster than I can.

If you shoot proper manual as described by Sandpiper you shouldn't need to change the ISO unless the light (not the subject) changes.

hollis_f......I do see what you and sandpiper are saying, and I plan to go with a handheld light meter and take my reading from the light source itself.

hollis_f wrote in post #16083145
If you shoot proper manual as described by Sandpiper you shouldn't need to change the ISO unless the light (not the subject) changes.

Yeah, thats what I said.
"in and out of shadows" means the light is changing.

jhayesvw wrote in post #16107966
Yeah, thats what I said.
"in and out of shadows" means the light is changing.

You said - "birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them". That's not 'in and out of shodows' that's moving from a light background to a dark background - exactly the situation that would fool most auto-exposures but not manual.

hollis_f wrote in post #16108126
You said - "birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them". That's not 'in and out of shodows' that's moving from a light background to a dark background - exactly the situation that would fool most auto-exposures but not manual.

And this is the exact reason why I started shooting in manual mode...I got tired of different exposures on images using a program mode because the camera was fooled into thinking the light changed. Most people don't understand manual mode and how it works...at least the ones I shoot with and they're more comfortable shooting in a program mode. I've tried to explain to them how it works but they just don't get it...so I have to listen to them complain about how the exposures are off on their images.

As an instructor was fond of telling us back in college, "A camera is programmed to ALWAYS make the same mistake, EVERY time, in certain situations." How true this is!

Fully manual cameras of the past set exposure to get an overall "perfect" exposure on the image, based on an overall image brightness of about 18% gray over the entire frame.

When programmable cameras came along they allowed one to prioritize a portion of the frame to expose for that 18% gray value . . . and they allow were programmed for novices to make the decisions for them for shooting "sports," "portrait," and whatever, by adjusting the ratio of aperture + shutter speed + iso/asa settings to what a trained photographer would probably do in various situations. HOWEVER . . . the camera has no brain, WHEN SHOOTING BIRDS it STILL is programmed to make the same mistakes every time.

It doesn't know your are looking up into a pretty bright sky BUT want the exposure correct on the underbelly, wings and head of that fast flying bird. There's no program for that . . . so it ends up exposing for the SKY . . . and your sky is brilliant blue but the bird is a grainy, black silhouette.

WHAT CAN HELP YOU GET "ON THE DANCE FLOOR" . . .

Since you will be pointing up into the bright sky, you must instead "meter" the correct exposures for the shadow side of the birds. One way is to walk under some trees and mainly shade your area and meter for the shadow side of a medium to light colored bunch of leaves!

If you do, when you point up and your image area is about 50% open, your test images should show the bird has correct color and exposure with your meter shouting to you that you are about 2 stops OVEREXPOSED. Again, the camera would have over-ruled you and underexposed the bird by two stops if you hadn't taken that power away from the camera! LOL

Now you'll quickly learn how much more overexposed you might have to set your camera if your bird is flying above you in a fully exposed sky!

As others said, UNLESS the light changes in the sky (suddenly darker or lighter), your setting should work for you pretty darn well in the open and in moderate shade . . . since the light falls on everything and gets reflected back up.

I've spoken generalities here, which everyone, including myself could contradict at times . . . but it WILL get you closer than what you are getting now . . . and over time you'll trust the available light that's consistently falling from above, and the amount of overexposure on your meter for various situations!

All the best . . .

Lame-Duck wrote in post #16078651
. . .

. . . In the manual shooting mode, I have not been able to figure out a way to do this (set the camera for over or under exposure in advance), and no one at the camera shop is able to help. With the 5D III, I am able to designate the large quick control dial as the means of selecting my ISO and this does help, but it's not what I'm actually looking for. I simply want to shoot in the manual mode, preset my aperature and shutter speed, put the ISO in auto select, and be able to over or under expose by an f/stop or two. If it's possible, some one please tell me how to do it.

I am told that with Nikon DSLR's, you can accomplish what I am trying to do. Is that true?

Three things work in absolute mathematical correlation for correct exposure, so if you raise shutter speed by one stop you must compensate by opening the aperture larger by one stop and visa versa. The ISO setting controls the sensitivity of the camera's sensor. The more sensitive you go, the more digital noise you get. Sometimes we must do this when shooting long lenses and needing a very fast shutter speed to capture incredible feather detail, especially when the light falls below our maximum open aperture!

Here are some good rule of thumb settings for you to consider . . . though NO decent bird photographers will stick to these "rules" all the time. Sometimes you must make severe compromises in these basic rules to get your shot, and hope you'll still get a decent ratio of "keepers!"

THE OLD HANDHELD SHUTTER SPEED RULE FOR SHARPNESS . . .
The longer the focal length, the faster the shutter speed must be!!!

For most subjects, the rule works well: shutter speed = or greater than 1/focal length. Thus for SHOOTING SPORTS with a 400mm lens, you want the shutter speed set for 1/400th second or faster.

BUT . . . for birding you should DOUBLE those hand-held shutter speed at the minimum when possible! Birds jump around, fidget and fly so quickly as one shoots them. Without the doubling of your shutter speed you'll end up with mostly blurry shots that smear the feather detail you must have. And, if you shoot a crop body camera, theoretically you should multiply the crop ratio and end up with an even FASTER shutter speed!

Here's what I do . . .

1. Start with my aperture wide open (assuming the lens is tack sharp at that setting).

2. Set my shutter speed. For BIF I want a minimum of 1/2000, but preferably 1/300th or higher. For perching birds and a tripod? I can go 1/800th on a 400mil BUT can also go much slower many times and get away with it USUALLY.

3. If I'm getting sufficient shutter speed for my desired results in the light, I can now up my aperture number to get a greater depth of field, depending on your desired background results too. It is all a compromise.

3. THEN I set the ISO to wherever it falls to get proper exposure of the underside of the bird (as described in my last post) . . . and fix the digital noise later in PP.


TRIPODS? They can be frustratingly useless sometimes, causing you to miss 90% of the opportunities as birds flit around. Thus I've had to learn to shoot at higher shutter speeds to overcome my long-preferred desire to use tripods all the time! With practice and attaining a more steady technique and hold . . . and having a fast-enough shutter speed to keep things sharp . . . I'm getting better results all the time.

Geez . . . I never thought I'd NOT use a tripod! Fast shutter speeds rule when shooting birds!!!

hollis_f wrote in post #16108126
You said - "birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them". That's not 'in and out of shodows' that's moving from a light background to a dark background - exactly the situation that would fool most auto-exposures but not manual.

actually I did say "in and out of shadows"
I just didnt use the word AND in between "birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them".

I was talking about both possibilities.

jhayesvw wrote in post #16216496
actually I did say "in and out of shadows"
I just didnt use the word AND in between "birds flying in open sky then down toward the surface with dark trees behind them".

I was talking about both possibilities.

Actually, hollis_f and others DID give the correct answer, but it lots of times escapes folks when they are confusing the OVERALL photo image area vs. getting the main SUBJECT into stunningly correct exposure.

And yes, as long as the overall LIGHT falling on the countryside remains pretty consistent, for the amount of filtered light in the shadows from the ambient light WILL remain pretty constant too . . . even if you move a few feet over and suddenly much more (or much less) of an open sky pops into your frame, for the bird itself will still be properly exposed. (Now if a massive 40,000ft. rain cloud moves in and blocks the sun you'll have to re-meter, but again you meter for the correct exposure for the bird).


I'll try to describe it coming from a different mindset, for it is quite normal for us to begin to "think" like a camera when we see the meter jump up and down in these situations . . .

1. GOAL - Getting the BIRD correctly exposed

2. BACKGROUND - Whether the BACKGROUND is very bright or very dark DOES NOT matter, for the background is whatever it is. It is about the subject. Sometimes it is that dramatic difference in brightness that can REALLY make the subject POP for a great photo too! Don't be tricked by the camera's meter or you'll miss your best shots sometimes!!!

Yes, the camera doesn't know what you want . . . so the auto ISO screws things up by adjusting your exposure up and down as you move around and have more or less open areas pop into your frame . . . which usually will ruin the exposure on the bird.

The bird though, will still have the correct exposure on it.

Yes, if the bird suddenly explodes into a bright sun area, the bird WILL have very bright HIGHLIGHTS on the top edges of its body . . . but you are still UNDER the bird and thus the exposure on the bird will still be right . . . on the bird. You can GREATLY reduce the excessive highlights later in Lightroom or other PP programs.

Photography is both a science and an art, and there are no absolute rules. When faced with variable conditions we must set exposure correctly on our subject, not the background . . . thus we must prevent the camera's artificial brain from screwing things up.

Hope this helps . . .

I dont typically shoot birds that are far overhead.
I find the shots not pleasing.

I like to shoot them low/close to eye level. Many times birds fly into and out of the dark canopy of the trees.
This would still require changing exposure as the bird will have 1/2 or less the light on it that it had 1 second earlier.

I get what youre saying if its up in the sky and setting exposure for the bird but thats just not a shot that interests me often. Especially on birds Ive taken plenty of pictures.