New 70D or used 7D?

I've been over every page of the 70D announcement thread and learned a lot there but didn't want to clutter what should be a thread about the 70D's features. I'm now in a position where I'm trying to decide if I want to upgrade to the 70D or pick up a used 7D. I presently own a 30D and a 60D. I love the 30D for many reasons but I find it limited because of its questionable high ISO performance and it's limited resolution. I've presently got it and some other lenses, bags and accessories for sale on the sale forum. I had intended to use the proceeds of that sale to pick up a used 7D but now I'm not sure. I also like my 60D but do see some advantages to the 70D over the 60, in my case the increased resolution, the HDR feature, the better auto-focus and possibly an increase in high ISO performance. I'm primarily a wildlife, nature and landscape photographer (I call myself a fairly serious amateur but I've sold a few photos and may take a more serious jump into it at some point soon).

Does anyone have any idea or guess about the cost of a used 7D? Might they go down considerably in price based on this release and the possible upcoming release of a 7D II? From my perspective, if I can buy a brand new 70D with warranty for $1100 or so (assuming I wait until someone offers a deal), it doesn't seem to make sense to drop $800-900 on a used 7D since most of the features of the 70D that are being criticized aren't really going to bother me remotely (like the plastic body and articulating LCD screen). If on the other hand I could pick up a used 7D for $600 or $700, that might make it a much harder decision.

At this moment in time, I'm not really considering selling the 60D because I really like it and could keep it as a backup but another option would be to sell the 60D also and purchase a new lens to go along with the new body. I'd appreciate people's thoughts about the cost of used 7Ds and the value of the new 70D and will watch this and all of the other 70D threads carefully.

CLP is offering refurb 7D for ~950. I was planning to get it until this 70D messed up my decision.

rssmps wrote in post #16087156
CLP is offering refurb 7D for ~950. I was planning to get it until this 70D messed up my decision.

Yeah, i also hate it when I realize that 60D is now $599 and 70D $1199

Double the price! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

It's hard to say... it needs to be tested, but on paper I will say I am excited at the fact that canon did a good job changing up the XXD series camera.

KHAWACHEN wrote in post #16087231
Yeah, i also hate it when I realize that 60D is now $599 and 70D $1199

Double the price! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Not an issue. Look at what the 60d cost when it was first released. The $599 price has to do with age and the 70d release.
Still, xxd models hold their price pretty well.

Bill Ragosta wrote in post #16087133
I've been over every page of the 70D announcement thread and learned a lot there but didn't want to clutter what should be a thread about the 70D's features. I'm now in a position where I'm trying to decide if I want to upgrade to the 70D or pick up a used 7D. I presently own a 30D and a 60D. I love the 30D for many reasons but I find it limited because of its questionable high ISO performance and it's limited resolution. I've presently got it and some other lenses, bags and accessories for sale on the sale forum. I had intended to use the proceeds of that sale to pick up a used 7D but now I'm not sure. I also like my 60D but do see some advantages to the 70D over the 60, in my case the increased resolution, the HDR feature, the better auto-focus and possibly an increase in high ISO performance. I'm primarily a wildlife, nature and landscape photographer (I call myself a fairly serious amateur but I've sold a few photos and may take a more serious jump into it at some point soon).

Does anyone have any idea or guess about the cost of a used 7D? Might they go down considerably in price based on this release and the possible upcoming release of a 7D II? From my perspective, if I can buy a brand new 70D with warranty for $1100 or so (assuming I wait until someone offers a deal), it doesn't seem to make sense to drop $800-900 on a used 7D since most of the features of the 70D that are being criticized aren't really going to bother me remotely (like the plastic body and articulating LCD screen). If on the other hand I could pick up a used 7D for $600 or $700, that might make it a much harder decision.

At this moment in time, I'm not really considering selling the 60D because I really like it and could keep it as a backup but another option would be to sell the 60D also and purchase a new lens to go along with the new body. I'd appreciate people's thoughts about the cost of used 7Ds and the value of the new 70D and will watch this and all of the other 70D threads carefully.

It's not clear what you're shooting, and specifically what about your 60D is holding you back, so it's tough to weigh in.

When considering the 7D, unless video is important, I'd recommend at least looking at the 1D Mark iii as well. Since you're keeping the 60D, you don't need video, so the 1D3 starts to make a lot of sense... Prices are likely to drop for both bodies, regardless of the 70D.

I do not see the 70D as a replacement to the 7D. I think the high ISO performance will be worse, the button layout is not as useful for working quickly, and it is not weather-sealed (at least, not like the 7D). The 7D is a very rugged camera that can take a lot of abuse and keep on working. It remains to be seen if the AF system on the 70D will be as good as claimed. If it is spectacular, it will surely be included in the replacement for the 7D which will likely be out before too long. I think the 70D is aimed more at low-budget and student film-makers whereas the 7D is an excellent wildlife and sports camera.

Bob

If you're keeping your 60D, then it really doesn't make sense to buy the 70D this early as you'll be buying when the price is highest (initial market price). Buying a used 7D makes sense if you:

(a) Have the Need for Speed
(b) You do BIF or other AF intensive photography
(c) Need Weather Sealing (and I don't mean just a few drops of water, I mean leaving the body out in the rain/snow/etc)
(d) Require deep buffer for burst shooting
(e) Are willing to shoot raw and work with files in post (to clean up high iso noise and sharpness)

For video purposes, the 60D is actually better suited than the 7D in the sense that the Dual Digic 4 in the 7D tends to chew through more battery than the 60D, the 60D has the swivel screen which is perfect for video, and the SD cards are cheaper than CF cards whilst offering good performance for the price. In terms of ISO noise performance of the 70D it remains to be seen if the noise in raw files is better than either the 60D or 7D, so it would be worth while to wait before jumping on the 70D to see some test results. That said, I have definitely been lured in by the second hand price of the 7D lately so I might be a bit biased . Ultimately its up to you to decide whether you really need the 7D.

whats wrong with the 60D? i can tell you right now any upgrade in quality you expect to see will be marginal over the 60D and not worth the price.

now if you need an improvement in AF...

My 60D is fine, as explained in my first post. I do mostly wildlife, including occasionally bird in flight and I think the autofocus on a 7D or a 70D would likely be a big improvement. I guess putting price aside, let me throw this out there. If they were priced evenly, would you prefer a new 7D or a new 70D, primarily for use on wildlife photography? I realize that the 70D isn't out there yet so nobody's had a chance to properly critique it but there are a few reviews I guess and a few sample pictures so maybe some folks will venture a stab at the question.

I guess what I'm hoping for is that used 7D prices fall off like crazy because I'd probably jump all over it if I could get a clean copy in the $600-700 range.

Bill Ragosta wrote in post #16087584
I guess what I'm hoping for is that used 7D prices fall off like crazy because I'd probably jump all over it if I could get a clean copy in the $600-700 range.

i wouldn't count on it.

i bet it won't go under $1000 before the elusive 7DII is announced.

FWIW, I posted this in another 7D price thread. I've never looked at the numbers in this way, but it's interesting to think about how long I want to wait to buy a used 1D4. The 1D4 prices might take a hit when a 7D2 is released, as it will speculatively be pretty close in a lot of areas, for a lot less than the $2500 or so 1D4 "predicted" price six months from now:

waterrockets wrote in post #16087410
Go look at the used 1D camera prices.
1D2n is ~$500, was $4000 in 2005 (depreciation: 11%/yr)
1D3 is ~$1000, was $4000 in 2008 (depreciation: 15%/yr)
1D4 is ~$2800, was $5000 in 2010 (depreciation: 15%/yr)
1DX is ~$5500, was $7000 in 2012 (depreciation: 21%/yr)

7D is ~$800, was $1700 in 2009 (depreciation 13%/yr)

7D will keep sliding, as it's approximately in the 15%/yr range right now, and the 70D and likely 7D2 will punch its price in the gut. It's sitting on an unsustainable depreciation right now b/c it hasn't been replaced, and the excellent firmware update shot some life back into it. I'd say you're looking at a 1%-2% drop per month -- hardly worth waiting and missing the enjoyment of owning the camera you want.

I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do this analysis for the XXD series too.

Hot Bob wrote in post #16087344
I do not see the 70D as a replacement to the 7D. I think the high ISO performance will be worse, the button layout is not as useful for working quickly, and it is not weather-sealed (at least, not like the 7D). The 7D is a very rugged camera that can take a lot of abuse and keep on working. It remains to be seen if the AF system on the 70D will be as good as claimed. If it is spectacular, it will surely be included in the replacement for the 7D which will likely be out before too long.. I think the 70D is aimed more at low-budget and student film-makers whereas the 7D is an excellent wildlife and sports camera
Bob

I expect the 70D, with its better/newer sensor, will produce cleaner images than the 7D. The 7D II will likely sport the same sensor as the 70D, but will be equipped with more features to keep it the top-of-the-line crop-frame camera.

How a product is "aimed" by the manufacturer isn't the most helpful consideration when comparing a 4-year old product to an all-new one. For example, what feature(s) does the 7D have that makes it better at wildlife photography than the 70D? Superior AF? No. Greater resolution? No. Better ISO performance? No. Faster speed? OK, the 7D is a little faster. Better weather sealing? Yes, the 7D is better there. All things considered, I don't see the old 7D as superior to the 70D for wildlife shooting.

No doubt the 7D II will be a definitively superior product to the 70D, and for my needs (need a dedicated birding body) I'm currently planning to hold out for the 7D II, but could change my mind if the 70D reviews are ravingingly good!

So apart from the 20mp and great video AF, you want to pay more for a camera that is almost a 7d?

David Arbogast wrote in post #16087716
I expect the 70D, with its better/newer sensor, will produce cleaner images than the 7D. The 7D II will likely sport the same sensor as the 70D, but will be equipped with more features to keep it the top-of-the-line crop-frame camera.

I agree with that assessment. Well, I will caveat the 70D having cleaner images than the 7D with "in theory" until I see actual results, not Canon's PR-speak.

David Arbogast wrote in post #16087716
How a product is "aimed" by the manufacturer isn't the most helpful consideration when comparing a 4-year old product to an all-new one. For example, what feature(s) does the 7D have that makes it better at wildlife photography than the 70D? Superior AF? No. Greater resolution? No. Better ISO performance? No. Faster speed? OK, the 7D is a little faster. Better weather sealing? Yes, the 7D is better there. All things considered, I don't see the old 7D as superior to the 70D for wildlife shooting.

I disagree with the bolded assessment, based on what I have read about the 70D, unless you are referring to the LV AF capability. The 7D has a dedicated separate processor for AF (the 70D's DIGIC5+ has to handle image processing plus AF logic - AI Servo is apparently quite demanding), and supports one or two modes that the 70D does not seem to have - Spot mode at least. Apparently the 7D has the best AF for Birds-In-Flight, which are an important part of wildlife shooting for me.

David Arbogast wrote in post #16087716
No doubt the 7D II will be a definitively superior product to the 70D, and for my needs (need a dedicated birding body) I'm currently planning to hold out for the 7D II, but could change my mind if the 70D reviews are ravingingly good!

I agree here too. I'd really like to find out the AF performance of the 70D vs the 7D, and whether the 70D has better ISO performance than the 7D: in theory it could/should, but until I see actual images and read real user feedback, I will have to suspend my judgement.

But I suspect I will be waiting for the 7DII...I can wait for now.

shinksma