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Thread started 23 Aug 2013 (Friday) 08:00
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lots of 6D's for sale why?

 
EverydayGetaway
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Sep 14, 2013 10:58 |  #226

tigerotor77w wrote in post #16295824 (external link)
I guess I'm the only one who agrees with this. Regardless of what Canon ended up marketing it as, the 5D Mark II was the cheaper of their full frame options and didn't have some of the "professional" features that the 1Ds had.

The 6D continues in this vein. I'd argue that it's precisely because the 5D II lured so many professionals into using it that the 5D III was created at a level far above the price point and feature set of the 5D II. But the 6D is in many ways a "replacement" for an inexpensive (by market value) full frame dSLR.

I think the 5DII was cheap because a lot of the tech used in it was basically left over stuff from the 5D and other Cameras in Canon's lineup. The original 5D ($3,299 at launch) cost a good bit more than the 5DII ($2,699 at launch), so really the 5DIII ($3,499 at launch) was just a return to the higher price point (all 3 were expensive at launch imo). I wouldn't call $2,699 for body only "cheap".


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Sep 14, 2013 11:59 |  #227

tigerotor77w wrote in post #16295824 (external link)
I guess I'm the only one who agrees with this. Regardless of what Canon ended up marketing it as, the 5D Mark II was the cheaper of their full frame options and didn't have some of the "professional" features that the 1Ds had.

The 6D continues in this vein. I'd argue that it's precisely because the 5D II lured so many professionals into using it that the 5D III was created at a level far above the price point and feature set of the 5D II. But the 6D is in many ways a "replacement" for an inexpensive (by market value) full frame dSLR.

I would agree with this statement. If it wasn't for the 6D I might not have stepped up to full frame or might have jumped ship for the cheaper D600 on Nikon. Im very happy with my purchase.


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pwm2
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Sep 14, 2013 12:12 |  #228

Canon_Lover wrote in post #16296054 (external link)
[...] that the 5D2 was an entry level FF DSLR.

Very strange statement. Name some other entry level FF cameras available at that time, please.

It was the most stripped down and cheapest FF in the Canon lineup.

You make it sound like Canon had a large lineup of FF bodies. Yes, it was the most stripped down and cheapest FF of all two available. But on the other hand: a 1D is can be seen as the most stripped down and cheapest 1-series body. Then it isn't pro because it is cheaper and have smaller sensor and less pixels than an 1Ds?

Hell, even I used one for professional-level work.

Even you???

It also enticed a huge wave of amateur photographers to upgrade from crop cameras to FF, at an entry-level price point.

Most of these amateur photographers probably did step in with the 5D.

It also had the equivalent of Rebel AF, slow FPS, poor weather sealing, and a direct print button. :lol:

Care to tell how fast FPS the 1Ds had?

For its time, the Nikon D700 was the pro level camera with top AF, great weather sealing, good FPS, etc. The 5D3 finally gained that level of performance and plus some.

When I label a camera as pro or not, it is based on the features and where they stand in the hierarchy of quality. The 5D2 had a nice sensor and good video, that's about it. Professional photographers will use whatever works for them even if it means using a Rebel. That has nothing to do with how I label a camera as pro or not.

And if your and Canon's view doesn't agree, then your view takes precedence?


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Mornnb
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Sep 14, 2013 18:46 |  #229

pwm2 wrote in post #16295521 (external link)
You are missing the point. We aren't talking about how good photos you can take with different cameras - you can manage to sell a photo for a great amount of money even if it was taken with a 350D.

We are talking about marketing labels. This is not a conversation about technology and it is not a conversation about photography. This is a silly conversation about ego.
Not that I'm above silly conversations.

But Canon classifies the 5D2 at the highest level when grading you for the CPS program, and this sub-thread started from the claim that a 5D2 isn't and has never been a pro camera but the 5D3 suddenly took the jump to be a pro camera. If the definition of "pro" is that the first digit is "1" then the 5D3 can't be more pro than the 5D2. If Canon is allowed to decide based on their ranking then the 5D2 was - and is - considered a pro body.

That is Canon's definition of pro, the first digit is 1. Not my definition. Look, screen captures from Canon's web page:

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IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/HvwlauJ.png

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Sep 14, 2013 19:00 |  #230

Mornnb wrote in post #16296679 (external link)
We are talking about marketing labels. This is not a conversation about technology and it is not a conversation about photography. This is a silly conversation about ego.
Not that I'm above silly conversations.



That is Canon's definition of pro, the first digit is 1. Not my definition. Look, screen captures from Canon's web page:

QUOTED IMAGE

QUOTED IMAGE

I dont find that a right argument. Sure canon takes the 1Dx as a professional body and the 5D's, 6D etc as enthusiast level. This is how they justify their prices...


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Sep 14, 2013 20:00 |  #231

haha


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Sep 15, 2013 04:40 |  #232

davidfarina wrote in post #16296705 (external link)
I dont find that a right argument. Sure canon takes the 1Dx as a professional body and the 5D's, 6D etc as enthusiast level. This is how they justify their prices...

Interesting Canon UK clearly puts the 5D3 as a Pro Camera see
http://www.canon.co.uk …R/professional/​index.aspx (external link)

1Dx. 5D3 and 1DC are on their Pro page.
Personally if they called it a beginners point and shoot, and it was the unit I would still buy it. :) :)
Pretty Nice Camera in my book!


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pwm2
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Sep 15, 2013 05:25 |  #233

Canon originally did with the 5D2 too, which is why I object to rewriting history, and calling it an entry-level camera.

A one-million dollar car isn't normally an entry-level car even if the same manufacturer has a car model for five million dollars.


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Sep 15, 2013 05:33 |  #234

Do you not understand the concept of entry level full frame?
There is such a thing as an entry level sports car too.


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pwm2
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Sep 15, 2013 05:55 |  #235

Mornnb wrote in post #16297554 (external link)
Do you not understand the concept of entry level full frame?
There is such a thing as an entry level sports car too.

But a $1 million sports car isn't an entry level sports car even if it might be the cheapest sports car from a specific manufacturer. Do you not understand how you must compare with the rest of the market when you decide what a entry-level sports car is?

Do you not understand the concept of Canon specifically branding a camera as pro-level? That the manufacturer might have two bodies they market as pro-level even if one is cheaper than the other?

Canon - the maker of the 5D2 - decided to label it a pro body. Shouldn't they be the ones to define which Canon body is a pro body?

While there are lots of things to complain about when discussing the 5D2, and multiple cameras are better or even much better now, it is still a question of incorrect history writing to look at todays cameras when deciding if Canon saw the 5D2 as a pro camera when it was released.


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Sep 15, 2013 06:33 |  #236

pwm2 wrote in post #16297562 (external link)
B

Canon - the maker of the 5D2 - decided to label it a pro body.

Depends on which Canon. Canon Australia labels it an enthusiasts body. Apparently Canon UK labels it a pro body.
If this doesn't demonstrate how arbitrary this label is, what will?


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Sep 15, 2013 09:26 |  #237

Submariner wrote in post #16297518 (external link)
Interesting Canon UK clearly puts the 5D3 as a Pro Camera see
http://www.canon.co.uk …R/professional/​index.aspx (external link)

1Dx. 5D3 and 1DC are on their Pro page.
Personally if they called it a beginners point and shoot, and it was the unit I would still buy it. :) :)
Pretty Nice Camera in my book!


LOL!
It's probably because with UK rip off prices only making money pros can afford 5dIII.
In US it's so cheap that falls into enthusiast category only:)




  
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Sep 15, 2013 10:27 |  #238

pwm2 wrote in post #16297562 (external link)
But a $1 million sports car isn't an entry level sports car even if it might be the cheapest sports car from a specific manufacturer. Do you not understand how you must compare with the rest of the market when you decide what a entry-level sports car is?

Do you not understand the concept of Canon specifically branding a camera as pro-level? That the manufacturer might have two bodies they market as pro-level even if one is cheaper than the other?

Canon - the maker of the 5D2 - decided to label it a pro body. Shouldn't they be the ones to define which Canon body is a pro body?

While there are lots of things to complain about when discussing the 5D2, and multiple cameras are better or even much better now, it is still a question of incorrect history writing to look at todays cameras when deciding if Canon saw the 5D2 as a pro camera when it was released.


I certainly do not understand why I must compare a companies entry level product to another companies entry level product that costs any significant amount more.

So either the person you are belittling and myself are the only ones in recorded history that compare two different manufactured goods with possibily different feature sets BASED ON PRICE,

Or you need to check yourself(I'm guessing its this one)

It is very natural to consider a manufacturers cheapest offering as that brands ENTRY to their line of products or market segment. As an exorcise think about what the Volkswagen group's entry mid engine car is. Ill give you a hint, if you look at the group as a whole it's not the million dollar sports car. However the Veyron does in fact happen to be the ENTRY LEVEL Bugatti.


For some reason you have your skivvies ALL bunched up.


If anyone says that frame rate is a measure of the level of professionalism I am openly going to troll you for a year!!! Muuuhahahahah


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pwm2
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Sep 15, 2013 20:24 |  #239

Mornnb wrote in post #16297599 (external link)
Depends on which Canon. Canon Australia labels it an enthusiasts body. Apparently Canon UK labels it a pro body.
If this doesn't demonstrate how arbitrary this label is, what will?

"labels it" - I think you are about 4.5 years off. What did Canon Australia label it as, when it was released? And how did it compare to the Nikon full-frame bodies at that time? Or the Sony FF bodies? Or the Pentax FF bodies?

There is absolutely no chance a 5D2 could be released now and be called a pro body. But that is irrelevant since the camera wasn't released today. The message Canon pushed out when it was released was that it was a pro body, despite not starting with the magic digit one.

And it is the remnants of that that have the european CPS program still count the 5D2 as platinum, while the 1D3 and 1Ds2 have dropped to gold and the 6D and 7D are all the way down at silver. Canon didn't place the 5D2 two steps above the 6D because they thought the 5D2 was an enthusiast body. But they did place the 6D there because they did not consider it a pro body.

I'm not trying to defend any 5d2 - it doesn't need to be defended. It is just a concept expressed in metal, glass, plastics and some silicone. But I'm pointing out that we shouldn't rewrite the history based on the state of todays cameras but based on a totally different market situation 4.5 years ago. At that time, if you met Canon staff, they didn't hold up a 5D2 and described is as a prosumer camera.


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pwm2
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Sep 15, 2013 20:53 |  #240

pyrojim wrote in post #16298070 (external link)
However the Veyron does in fact happen to be the ENTRY LEVEL Bugatti.

But it isn't an ENTRY LEVEL sports car.

See the difference between "entry level BUGATTI" and "entry level SPORTS CAR"?

On the other hand - I'm not too convinced the Veyron is an entry level Bugatti. The Super Sport is $2.4 million standard. And as with all these cars you can bump the price anywhere you want by asking for enough custom work.

The Veyron would be cheap compared to a 1931 Bugatti Royale Kellner Coupe - but not because it is an entry level car, but because rare veteran or race cars can get insane prices.

However, when two pro bodies have different price, then you can decide to call one an "entry level". But that doesn't disqualify it from being a pro body.

For some reason you have your skivvies ALL bunched up.

If anyone says that frame rate is a measure of the level of professionalism I am openly going to troll you for a year!!! Muuuhahahahah

Not sure why you would bring up frame rate. I did only mention frame rate in an earlier post because it was mentioned that the 5D2 couldn't be a pro body because of the frame rate - which was an oops by another poster who forgot to take a closer look at the frame rates of the different 1Ds models.

Make sure you pick up, and understand, the details before you go on attack. Jumping into the middle of the debate without having read the start is a fail.


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lots of 6D's for sale why?
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