What to Charge - and - Moral Issues With Photoshop?

How much would be acceptable to charge for a project where the session is approximately 1 hour and about 30 images are taken. The subject is interior design such as kitchens and baths, etc. I do basic editing (raw processing) to all of them and post for the client to chose between 6 and 10 final images. I do very involved editing on all of these final images, including removing items that aren't desired**, recreating things through pixel editing that weren't there to begin with**, etc. (** See below for another question about this.)

From the beginning of the shoot until the final images are delivered, I have roughly 15-20 hours total invested. The client is very picky and asks for numerous rounds of revisions and editing. I try to gross about $50/hour minimum in order to accomplish the goals of my part time business. For this shoot, I would be looking at a total fee of $750 minimum. The images are for a national publication and are of a quality that I feel belong in that fee level.

However, this client doesn't seem willing to have this level of investment. Cost is normally whatever your client is willing to pay for the value they perceive. My thoughts are that this client asks for and expects a level of service well above and beyond my typical client, and that they just aren't educated on the value I provide. I feel that I should charge accordingly, even it means they are no longer a client. If they want point and shoot fees then find someone with point and shoot quality. The only caveat being that this client is just starting out as a designer and is financing the cost of the images himself, not through his employer. Thoughts?

** What is your opinion on using pixel editing techniques to remove or add things that were or were not present in the original image? For instance, if the designer planned to have a frame less glass shower enclosure but the designer's client only could afford the one with the frame, would you have issues submitting images for a design competition that show it as the design was intended (frame less) and not as it was executed (framed)? I have issues with it, personally. Thoughts? If you agree that this isn't a best practice, how would you approach the client with the issue?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Part of your job is to educate them, which should have been addressed at the client meeting & in the original contract?

Generally, I include one revision. Again, you need to educate him that more revisions will cost more money. And stick to that.... usually. Each situation needs to be judged on it's own merits.

Sometimes it will come down to that. Life goes on. ; )

From what you've said, it's a design competition. Unless the rules also require that the design be executed, I wouldn't have a problem with the editing.

Isn't it the client's moral issue instead of yours? He's the one submitting the photos and he knows exactly what it looked like in reality. I'm also guessing the rules on photo manipulation are specified in the competition's rules, so it may or may not be an issue.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #16253196
Part of your job is to educate them, which should have been addressed at the client meeting & in the original contract?
Generally, I include one revision. Again, you need to educate him that more revisions will cost more money. And stick to that.... usually. Each situation needs to be judged on it's own merits.
Sometimes it will come down to that. Life goes on. ; )
From what you've said, it's a design competition. Unless the rules also require that the design be executed, I wouldn't have a problem with the editing.

Thank you. I am still learning a lot about client interaction as well as having the confidence in my own work to charge what I need to charge.

I am finding that a lot of potential clients balk at my prices due to my limited portfolio. How would you recommend I handle this? I refuse to work for free, but if clients won't pay my desired rate, and I decide to offer discounts for portfolio building purposes, it seems I am establishing my perceived value to them for future work, regardless of how well I define introductory or one-time discounts. Do most people just move on to new clients once the portfolio is there to support their intended fees?

jefzor wrote in post #16253208
Isn't it the client's moral issue instead of yours? He's the one submitting the photos and he knows exactly what it looked like in reality. I'm also guessing the rules on photo manipulation are specified in the competition's rules, so it may or may not be an issue.

True. Just wondering if there is any repercussion for me since I will be given credit for the images in the competition. I should have asked for a copy of the rules for entry. My mistake.

bmaxphoto wrote in post #16253014
How much would be acceptable to charge for a project where the session is approximately 1 hour and about 30 images are taken. The subject is interior design such as kitchens and baths, etc. I do basic editing (raw processing) to all of them and post for the client to chose between 6 and 10 final images. I do very involved editing on all of these final images, including removing items that aren't desired**, recreating things through pixel editing that weren't there to begin with**, etc. (** See below for another question about this.)

From the beginning of the shoot until the final images are delivered, I have roughly 15-20 hours total invested. The client is very picky and asks for numerous rounds of revisions and editing. I try to gross about $50/hour minimum in order to accomplish the goals of my part time business. For this shoot, I would be looking at a total fee of $750 minimum. The images are for a national publication and are of a quality that I feel belong in that fee level.

One bit of advice regarding that bolded part, from someone I knew in another creative endeavor (advertising). Offer TWO rounds of editing/revisions in your agreement, and stick to it! Anything after that is charged hourly.

In that field, picky sometimes meant "perfectionist" which of course isn't possible. But they'd obsess over every letter and comma (or pixel in your case) in the quest for something "better." Other times, picky meant "indecisive" and resulted in numerous requests for "let's try this here, or changing that word there, or what if we tried this other thing..." ad nauseum. Both of these will suck your time dry.

But when facing the prospect of starting the $$$-per-hour meter running, both types of clients will amazingly be able to come to a final decision!

bmaxphoto wrote in post #16253014
However, this client doesn't seem willing to have this level of investment. Cost is normally whatever your client is willing to pay for the value they perceive. My thoughts are that this client asks for and expects a level of service well above and beyond my typical client, and that they just aren't educated on the value I provide. I feel that I should charge accordingly, even it means they are no longer a client. If they want point and shoot fees then find someone with point and shoot quality. The only caveat being that this client is just starting out as a designer and is financing the cost of the images himself, not through his employer. Thoughts?

And here's where it goes off the rails. Why does he have to be demoted to P&S quality (i.e. all or nothing)? Isn't there some middle ground? I'm guessing the 6-10 finals are of all different designs. It seems like the long work is in the pixel-level post-processing. Perhaps you could shoot the whole series, but only provide 3 finals of best quality for a total less than the estimated $750 to ease the financial start-up burden. Then you could agree to a separate work piece to finish the additional 3-5. That way, you'd spend less time working on the project, and you help put the spending decision back into your potential client's court.

bmaxphoto wrote in post #16253014
....Cost is normally whatever your client is willing to pay for the value they perceive.

No it isn't. Cost is the direct cost of creating the image + overheads + your profit.

You need to educate them or drop them as a client - or give in, do what you think is wrong and be miserable while doing it.

Find some examples of comparable quality work - call the photographer pretending to be a client (or get a friend to) and ask for a quote. Similarly find some lower quality work and get quotes for that. Use this to educate your client as to your value.

Not your problem. You are commissioned to create images. Unless you know that your client is planning to do something illegal it really isn't something for you to worry about.

rpadula wrote in post #16253255
One bit of advice regarding that bolded part, from someone I knew in another creative endeavor (advertising). Offer TWO rounds of editing/revisions in your agreement, and stick to it! Anything after that is charged hourly.

In that field, picky sometimes meant "perfectionist" which of course isn't possible. But they'd obsess over every letter and comma (or pixel in your case) in the quest for something "better." Yes.Other times, picky meant "indecisive" and resulted in numerous requests for "let's try this here, or changing that word there, or what if we tried this other thing..." ad nauseum. Yes. Both of these will suck your time dry. And yes.

But when facing the prospect of starting the $$$-per-hour meter running, both types of clients will amazingly be able to come to a final decision! Very good point.

And here's where it goes off the rails. Why does he have to be demoted to P&S quality (i.e. all or nothing)He doesn't necessarily. But it seems that in our previous conversations that his budget for these shoots is quite minimal. He doesn't seem to want to pay anything, and if he has to pay doesn't want to pay much. You do offer some other solutions. Thank you.? Isn't there some middle ground? I'm guessing the 6-10 finals are of all different designs. No, all one room. 6-10 different shots to document and communicate his design. It seems like the long work is in the pixel-level post-processing. Absolutely. Perhaps you could shoot the whole series, but only provide 3 finals of best quality for a total less than the estimated $750 to ease the financial start-up burden. Would definitely make sense, but he needs a minimum of 6 typically for each project I photograph.Then you could agree to a separate work piece to finish the additional 3-5. That way, you'd spend less time working on the project, and you help put the spending decision back into your potential client's court. I think I can come up with an alternative with some of the ideas you present.

Thanks for you advice. Another alternative is to get faster at processing. Haha. Thanks again.

Dan Marchant wrote in post #16253279
No it isn't. Cost is the direct cost of creating the image + overheads + your profit. Let me rephrase. The price you can command is a result of perceived value. If your anticipated costs are higher than what clients are willing to pay, you have a problem. That is what I was trying to communicate.


You need to educate them or drop them as a client - or give in, do what you think is wrong and be miserable while doing it. Absolutely.

Find some examples of comparable quality work - call the photographer pretending to be a client (or get a friend to) and ask for a quote. Similarly find some lower quality work and get quotes for that. Use this to educate your client as to your value. Great idea. I will need to try this.


Not your problem. You are commissioned to create images. Unless you know that your client is planning to do something illegal it really isn't something for you to worry about.True.

Thanks.

I'm curious... Since he doesn't want to pay anything (or much) for your photographic services, is he going to also offer his decorating services for free (or not much)?

He wants to use your photographic skills to help him make money. He should see the value in that and be prepared to pay for it.

jwhite65 wrote in post #16253404
I'm curious... Since he doesn't want to pay anything (or much) for your photographic services, is he going to also offer his decorating services for free (or not much)?

He wants to use your photographic skills to help him make money. He should see the value in that and be prepared to pay for it.

Hahaha. Very glad you said this. That is exactly what I told him when he said he wanted images for free. He quickly realized that he was in error and then we proceeded to negotiate a fee. It wasn't what I wanted but when I thought about the situation it made sense. He has a ton of work for me to shoot, so I can fill my portfolio with one client and make at least enough to cover my cost even if no profit is involved. With his contacts in the industry, and my portfolio stuffed with pretty cool stuff, I think I will open up a lot of doors for better paying work.

I won't negotiate as low as I did for all clients, but I saw the potential in this one. I guess my main question was do you just keep that rate for that client moving forward due to other tangible benefits? Or do you attempt to increase them once you have proven yourself to that client?

bmaxphoto wrote in post #16253324
Another alternative is to get faster at processing. Haha.

Yeah, there's always that!

Good luck (and to the Hokies too - they're gonna play here in Atlanta tomorrow).

jwhite65 wrote in post #16253404
I'm curious... Since he doesn't want to pay anything (or much) for your photographic services, is he going to also offer his decorating services for free (or not much)?

He wants to use your photographic skills to help him make money. He should see the value in that and be prepared to pay for it.

This.

And "just starting out" in business is not an excuse for expecting discounted fees. Marketing is part of every business and costs money.

Maybe I've been in the service business too long but I say stick to your pricing and don't worry if they walk. The moment you lower your rate, that client will realize they can do that on every project. You will never make your rate and will be bitter. There's plenty more out there that will pay your rate.
Make sure you have your policies in writing whether an email or official contract. That way there is no question or confusion.

rpadula wrote in post #16253417
Yeah, there's always that!

Good luck (and to the Hokies too - they're gonna play here in Atlanta tomorrow).

Thanks. We are definitely going to need it. I hope we win and believe we can, but reality is that physics is physics. They are bigger, faster, and stronger, with more experience and longer tenured coaches. We will see I guess. All I know is that my kids and I will be knee deep in home made wings, french fries, chicken tenders, salsa, guacamole, and chips! Win or lose, should still be a fun afternoon and evening.

yipDog Studios wrote in post #16253430
This.

And "just starting out" in business is not an excuse for expecting discounted fees. Marketing is part of every business and costs money.

Maybe I've been in the service business too long but I say stick to your pricing and don't worry if they walk. The moment you lower your rate, that client will realize they can do that on every project. You will never make your rate and will be bitter. There's plenty more out there that will pay your rate.
Make sure you have your policies in writing whether an email or official contract. That way there is no question or confusion.

Good advice. How do you market with no portfolio? How do you get a portfolio without offering discounts?