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FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Motorsports 
Thread started 23 Sep 2013 (Monday) 20:36
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Panning/focus question

 
Lowner
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Sep 27, 2013 03:54 |  #31

I have to say I'm not a fan of side views. I pan until the composition looks interesting, then press the shutter. This, more often than not, is a "threequarter view" - with the cars front quarter nearest me. That way I can show wheels blurred but the rest of the car razor sharp.


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Lloydd
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Sep 27, 2013 04:21 |  #32

I think you need to understand what ISO actually is, because your reasoning for using ISO800 doesn't make any sense at all.

You've done a good job of the tracking of the subject, but the camera settings are off. And to be honest, you'd be doing well to get many good shots from the long end of a 70-300mm even under the perfect conditions (relative to some quality glass).




  
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terrygilliam
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Sep 27, 2013 05:58 |  #33

Lowner wrote in post #16328665 (external link)
I have to say I'm not a fan of side views. I pan until the composition looks interesting, then press the shutter. This, more often than not, is a "threequarter view" - with the cars front quarter nearest me. That way I can show wheels blurred but the rest of the car razor sharp.

Yup, that's a terrific shot to have, but you can't just go back to the office with a front 3/4 of every car, thus pans, rears, pits, jubos, etc..




  
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330cic
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Sep 27, 2013 10:46 |  #34

sandpiper wrote in post #16327561 (external link)
Well, he said "to be true to F1", so I read it as a comment on the way they spend huge sums of money to get tiny performance increases with the cars. I don't think it was meant as a serious comment about him improving his work by only 1% :D

Exactly!


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330cic
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Sep 27, 2013 10:50 |  #35

Lloydd wrote in post #16328687 (external link)
I think you need to understand what ISO actually is, because your reasoning for using ISO800 doesn't make any sense at all.

You've done a good job of the tracking of the subject, but the camera settings are off. And to be honest, you'd be doing well to get many good shots from the long end of a 70-300mm even under the perfect conditions (relative to some quality glass).

ISO controls the sensitivity of the sensor, right? When I am experimenting, what I see is that higher ISO numbers give me more light but also more noise (at least at the max of 1600).

So when panning I fix the shutter at 1/50 and I'm using Tv (which chooses aperture for me, hence the f22 on the original pic in this thread) the choice I have left is ISO to give me the light I need - and anything less than 800 comes out too dark. Or am I mistaken?


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drewl
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Sep 27, 2013 12:06 as a reply to  @ 330cic's post |  #36

if you used a lower ISO (less sensitive), it would open the aperture back up because it needed more light.




  
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sandpiper
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Sep 27, 2013 13:04 |  #37

330cic wrote in post #16329268 (external link)
ISO controls the sensitivity of the sensor, right? When I am experimenting, what I see is that higher ISO numbers give me more light but also more noise (at least at the max of 1600).

So when panning I fix the shutter at 1/50 and I'm using Tv (which chooses aperture for me, hence the f22 on the original pic in this thread) the choice I have left is ISO to give me the light I need - and anything less than 800 comes out too dark. Or am I mistaken?

Why would it come out too dark? The camera would (as drewl said) simply choose a wider aperture to give a correct exposure. If you used ISO 100 instead, the camera would simply have selected f/8 instead of f/22. That would minimise softness caused by refraction, which you can get at such small apertures as f/22, putting your lens somewhere close to the "sweet spot" for sharpness and still giving enough DOF to cover the car properly.

The problem with using ISO 800 at that shutter speed is that if the sun starts to come out, your lens won't be able to stop down enough and your shots will be overexposed. If the sun came out and that car was suddenly in direct sunlight, the camera would need to set somewhere around f/64 to give you a correct exposure and that is probably two stops smaller than your lens can actually go, so your images would be severely overexposed and probably blown out in several places.




  
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330cic
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Sep 27, 2013 13:19 |  #38

I shall definitely try this when the Vintage cars come in Oct. I could have been doing something wrong...I just recall trying ISO lower than 800 and getting a really dark shot (didn't note that aperture it had chosen though - I just trashed it).

I am learning so much here - can't thank y'all enough!


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NewCreation
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Sep 27, 2013 13:37 |  #39

I'm not a panning expert, but I can highly recommend "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson to help you get a better grasp on the iso/shutter speed/fstop relation.


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Radders
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Sep 28, 2013 08:31 |  #40

I've never gone lower than 1/80th with motorsports, here's a few at that speed for you. (unsure on the Fnumber. Originals got lost :( )

IMAGE: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3008/5778221051_de9eedfb48_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/radders84/57782​21051/  (external link)
MB9T9755 (external link) by Rainbow 1984 (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5025/5778222295_d5f0491f83_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/radders84/57782​22295/  (external link)
MB9T9790 (external link) by Rainbow 1984 (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3648/5778766210_018742ee45_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/radders84/57787​66210/  (external link)
MB9T9786 (external link) by Rainbow 1984 (external link), on Flickr

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Picturesports
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Sep 28, 2013 08:51 |  #41

Bryan Peterson's book is excellent - Worth ever penny.

A bunch of generalities for you to work with. These are generalities, so there is going to be a case where these don't apply (I'm sure they will be along and post in a moment :))

Sweet Spot
- Typically this is one or two stops on a lens down from fully open. Fully open is the smallest F number you have. Us old people remember them as fractions before all this fancy decimal stuff - F16 is 1/16 - F4 is 1/4 and a quarter (1/4) is bigger than a sixteenth (1/16).

So for the sweet spot dial the aperture wide open and then come back a stop or two. Why the sweet spot ?? It is where the optics of the lens are at their most pure. Above and below it they are compromising something to make the lens do it.

For a pan shot you don't need depth of field so a low F number is fine.

Shutter speed - with the lens open (low F number) we have a big hole in the lens for the light to pour in, so the shutter doesn't need to be open for long for the right amount of light to go in. Again exactly want we want for pan shots. 1/60 sec is good. 1/80 we can work with depending on which lens, the background etc (see the earlier posts from folks)

So we now have (lets say) F8 and 1/80. These combine to get an amount of "space" in to the camera every time we press the button. I say space because light depends on how bright it is. Think of it as a box of space - the size of the hole in the lens and the time for which the shutter is open combine to set how much space goes in.

Which ISO setting we need - for F8 and 1/80 - depends on how bright the light filling that space is. Example ... Set the camera on manual, go out at midday and take a photo. Leave the camera settings the same and go out at midnight and you get a different photo (black cat in a coal cellar typically). The same amount of "space" went in to the camera - just one was bright and the other dark

So lets assume we end up with F8 - 1/80 and ISO 320 all of which come together to put the needle in the middle - the exposure needle that tell us with have the right amount of "space", for the current brightness of the light, going on to the sensor.

Narrow just the aperture and leave the other setting alone (Bigger F number = smaller hole) and less space is going to go in to the camera (same time through a smaller hole = less) so we will have a darker image. Increasing the ISO tells the sensor to work with less light - it gets spread out on the sensor and we get grainy images and "noise"

Go back to F8 and make the shutter speed lower and more light goes in (same size hole in the lens open for longer = more) and we get more space (and light) in to the camera. We can reduce the ISO to accommodate the extra light.

The three factors ISO, Aperture and Shutter Speed combine to give you the right exposure.

So if the sweet spot is F8 the shutter speed you want for the background is 1/80 - then adjust the ISO so that the exposure (use the needle) is correct.

If the images is coming out dark having done these 3 things - and the needle being in the middle - check the monitor you are using, the image will be correctly exposed.

When shooting in New Zealand a few years back, I was doing "lead car pans" out of a tight left turn. You track the lead car and pan at about 1/125 and because of parallax errors all cars following (going in a different direction to the movement of the camera) are blurred.

The light was so bright that even at ISO 50 (yes 50) I was maxing out the aperture (F22) and having to increase the shutter speed so much that the shot didn't work.

Time for a filter - Just think of them as sunglasses for your camera. 4 stop filter (thick colour neutral bit of resin or plastic) cuts down the light going in the hole, so a bigger aperture is required or in my case I could slow the shutter down to 1/125 and get the shot.

I have waffled for way to long - hope all of that helps.


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Lloydd
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Sep 28, 2013 16:59 |  #42

Just remember the basics, that there are 3 settings that will define the final exposure of your image. Those are your shutter speed, ISO and aperture.

If you're talking about a photo taken at ISO100, 1/100 and f/8 (for example) and you change any of those then you're going to end up with a different amount of light getting to the sensor, and therefore either a lighter or darker image. If you up the ISO to 200 then you've got the sensor being twice as sensitive, so the exposure will be +1EV rather than 0 and it will look considerably brighter. Conversely, if you halve the ISO to 50 then you'll end up with a darker image.

Likewise with the shutter speed. Changing that to 1/50 with hold the shutter open twice as long which means the sensor will see twice as much light as before and the exposure will be +1EV. And also if you make it 1/200 then you'll only get half the light in and the exposure will look darker, and be -1EV.

Aperture is the same. With the aperture opened up 1 stop to let more light in (to f/5.6) then you're going to get a +1EV exposure in the same way as you would have by bumping the ISO up, or by holding the shutter open longer. The same applies for closing the aperture down by 1 stop to f/11, you'll get a -1EV exposure and the image will seem darker.


So you have ISO, shutter speed and aperture. If you take your standard ISO100, 1/100, f/8 image and mess with your settings and end up taking an image at ISO200, 1/200, f/8 then you're going to get the same exposure (with respects to light/dark) as you would with the original settings. Half the shutter speed but double the ISO means you'll get the same exposure.

In Tv mode, you set the shutter speed you want. This is the key thing you want to set with panning. If you can track the cars at 1/50th (which by the look of your pic, you can) then you set that and the ISO that you want (the lower the ISO, the less noise) and the camera chooses which aperture would give you the correct exposure.

In your supplied pic you have pushed the ISO up to 800 and the camera has decided that it is getting waaaaay too much light with the sensor up that high so it has had to close the aperture right down to f/22 to get the exposure reasonable. If you had dropped the ISO down to 400, then the camera would have chosen f/16 instead. If you had gone down to ISO200 then it would have gone with f/11, and if you were right back down at ISO100 then it would have gone with f/8.

I think the reason you may have had dark images is that you reached the limit of what the lens could actually do at some stage. If you try to get an exposure by setting ISO and shutter speed in a situation where the camera calculates that it would need f/2.8, but your lens is only capable of going to f/5.6 then it will expose as much as it can with the settings you have applied (ISO and shutter speed) but the lens can't open enough to get light in for a correct exposure. This is something you'll need to be aware of if you're letting the camera chose things for you (ie, not using manual mode).

If you're going for an aperture much smaller than f/11ish then you start losing sharpness. A problem known as diffraction. f/8 is usually the sweet spot on most lenses. f/22 will definitely be robbing you of some sharpness.

The other thing, if you're taking photos and finding that the setting you have applied all seem correct and you're still getting images that are under exposured then you can up the EV. This is the -3..-2..-1..0..+1..+2..+3 bit on the back of the camera. Turn that up to +1 and it will expose a bit more light.




  
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330cic
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Oct 01, 2013 20:09 |  #43

Gracias!!


SteveH
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KNaph
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Oct 03, 2013 15:53 |  #44

I can't really add anything else, since pretty much everyone has covered it all.

But if you need to practice panning, what I did when I first started was just to go stand on a street corner and pan the traffic driving by. Looks weird, and you probably won't want to keep any of those photos, but you get to practice the panning motion a lot more than just once a month at the track.


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Trapstar
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Oct 10, 2013 21:48 |  #45

The original shot in this thread i personally think is sweet. although the car isn't as sharp it has a cool effect that the panning has added to it. but Radders shots are spot on. amazing.


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Panning/focus question
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