Balance on-camera hotshoe flash with ambient?

I'm going to be taking some pictures for family (outside) this coming weekend. I'm admittedly not that experienced with on camera flash. Usually I just shoot natural light because of my inexperience with the flash. However, I would like to give the flash a try this weekend to use for some fill.

Can anyone explain their technique for balancing fill and background am ambient light? Is there a formula for figuring it out? What settings? Manual? AV?

Just testing here in the house I used manual and exposed for background and tried to use ETTL for the fill but it ended up pretty overexposed. In assuming this is because of being indoors and the flash bouncing off the ceiling and walls so I'm not sure if I would get different results outside or not.

I don't care much for ETTL, I just expose for ambient and fill with flash on manual.

I would use second curtain sync if your flash supports that.

tons of info over at http://strobist.blogsp​ot.com/

maverick75 wrote in post #16350370
I don't care much for ETTL, I just expose for ambient and fill with flash on manual.

I would use second curtain sync if your flash supports that.

tons of info over at http://strobist.blogsp​ot.com/

Thank you. I find that for me, I usually get better results using the flash on manual as well. For some reason ETTL just never looks good. Although I don't have the best flash out there so that could be partly to blame.

With using flash on manual, do you typically just take a few moments to fire a few test shots to get the exposure and manual flash power settings where you want them or is there so kind of formula you use to get it right without having to fire too many test shots?

Thanks for the link. Will visit now.

I usually get it right the first time, after a couple of months it becomes second nature.
When I don't, it only takes 1 or 2 more adjustments.

maverick75 wrote in post #16350419
I usually get it right the first time, after a couple of months it becomes second nature.
When I don't, it only takes 1 or 2 more adjustments.

Thanks! I guess I just need to practice. Can't except to be good at something with no practice.

deronsizemore wrote in post #16350334
I'm going to be taking some pictures for family (outside) this coming weekend. I'm admittedly not that experienced with on camera flash. Usually I just shoot natural light because of my inexperience with the flash. However, I would like to give the flash a try this weekend to use for some fill.

Can anyone explain their technique for balancing fill and background am ambient light? Is there a formula for figuring it out? What settings? Manual? AV?

Just testing here in the house I used manual and exposed for background and tried to use ETTL for the fill but it ended up pretty overexposed. In assuming this is because of being indoors and the flash bouncing off the ceiling and walls so I'm not sure if I would get different results outside or not.

DON'T FALL ASLEEP

http://youtu.be/Y01cwu​4RouI

auto-clicker wrote in post #16350701
DON'T FALL ASLEEP

http://youtu.be/Y01cwu​4RouI

Holy Crap! I had to stop at about 12 minutes! I think I'll just buy my starter kit and go learn by doing!!

Outside, if you're ETTL start at -1 adjust as needed for fill.

Set it manual, start in the middle of your flash's power and go up and down in increments.This way you've cut your guess of where you want to be in half, the more you do it the easier it will be to estimate but this cuts the guess work. I fall in and out of practice with flash so it's a handy tip to remember when working manual.

Get a few shots with people mulling around while you dial it in. Or if you've got a relative that's a real ham for the camera, but basically this way you won't feel that pressure to get it right, while you get it there, then when you have a group all you need to worry about is posing, smiles, eyes open and keeping some energy. When flash is 2nd nature that won't be a big deal but until it is, it should help relax you and allow you to get better results because you won't be as tense.

You've got a week, if you'll be shooting around sunset I'd order some color gels (usually 10-15 for a pack of several colors/shades so you can mix, add velcro tabs to them or use a rubber band to hold in place so you can reuse), as white balance matching it probably going to be the hardest task.

For about ~$30 you could find some yongnuo RF transmitters or a OCF hot shoe cord to get the flash off camera, put it with an adapter (one came with my canon flash, or my vello cable has tripod threads built in). Getting the flash off of the camera is going to go a long way toward removing that flat straight on lighting look, indoors some bouncing techniques apply, outdoors, bouncing usually isn't an option. You may or may not want to look into some sort of modifier depending on desired look and/or budget, that ranges from shoot through umbrella and 5in1 reflectors to full on studio softboxes. The size of your light source relative to your subject does have a direct effect on the quality of light hitting your subject, if nothing else understand what the look of the speed light is going to be. As a fill source I haven't found it to be that big of an issue, as a key light, making a small light look good had been tricky for me.

auto-clicker wrote in post #16350701
DON'T FALL ASLEEP

http://youtu.be/Y01cwu​4RouI

Oh man... that was long. I couldn't watch it all. He was using a light meter for everything too which I don't have, so I'll just have to rely more on some trial and error to get the shots. It's for family and not paid, so they won't mind if I fumble around a bit while getting the correct settings.

Motor On wrote in post #16350815
Outside, if you're ETTL start at -1 adjust as needed for fill.

Set it manual, start in the middle of your flash's power and go up and down in increments.This way you've cut your guess of where you want to be in half, the more you do it the easier it will be to estimate but this cuts the guess work. I fall in and out of practice with flash so it's a handy tip to remember when working manual.

Get a few shots with people mulling around while you dial it in. Or if you've got a relative that's a real ham for the camera, but basically this way you won't feel that pressure to get it right, while you get it there, then when you have a group all you need to worry about is posing, smiles, eyes open and keeping some energy. When flash is 2nd nature that won't be a big deal but until it is, it should help relax you and allow you to get better results because you won't be as tense.

You've got a week, if you'll be shooting around sunset I'd order some color gels (usually 10-15 for a pack of several colors/shades so you can mix, add velcro tabs to them or use a rubber band to hold in place so you can reuse), as white balance matching it probably going to be the hardest task.

For about ~$30 you could find some yongnuo RF transmitters or a OCF hot shoe cord to get the flash off camera, put it with an adapter (one came with my canon flash, or my vello cable has tripod threads built in). Getting the flash off of the camera is going to go a long way toward removing that flat straight on lighting look, indoors some bouncing techniques apply, outdoors, bouncing usually isn't an option. You may or may not want to look into some sort of modifier depending on desired look and/or budget, that ranges from shoot through umbrella and 5in1 reflectors to full on studio softboxes. The size of your light source relative to your subject does have a direct effect on the quality of light hitting your subject, if nothing else understand what the look of the speed light is going to be. As a fill source I haven't found it to be that big of an issue, as a key light, making a small light look good had been tricky for me.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this. If I'm in ETTL with my flash, should I be in AV mode or M on my camera? Or should I ever be in AV mode when using a flash like this?

As for the color gels, do you have any examples of outdoor at sunset type shots that were taken with gels? I'm sure they're useful, but at the moment, I can't think of any reason why I'd want to use a different color gel.

I actually have these transmitters: http://www.amazon.com …wboy+studio+fla​sh+trigger. They seem to work pretty good. I also have a reflector: http://www.amazon.com …o06_s01_i00?ie=​UTF8&psc=1 and a 43" white umbrella and stand. I've not used them much though except for around the house which I assume is totally different than outside in sunlight.

Is the easiest thing for me to do is put the camera in AV mode, take a test shot spot metering the background to get a starting point on my ambient light settings. Flip it over to M and use those AV settings so that I know I've got a good starting point and then add the flash and set it to the middle of the flash's power and adjust from there? Does that make sense or am I making it more complicated?

As for the actual shot, let's say I've got my subject with their back to the sun (which is setting so it won't be extremely strong) and I want to use fill for their front/face. Obviously I wouldn't want the fill straight on or else I'd just use the flash on camera, so would a 45 degree angle to my subject be best? Or just off to the side of me and not quite 45 degree? What's a good rule of thumb when you're only using one flash in this manner I guess is what I'm asking.

Thanks.

So basically your flash is roughly daylight balance (in experience I've always felt it a little cooler), the sunset is a nice rich warm amber, hence the term "golden hour". I don't have an example handy right now, but an hour earlier and I could've stepped outside and show you, but basically, the flash looks blue while the natural light looks orange, in Raw, one or the other is fine, but when you start mixing them it looks obvious that you used flash, so the blend is gone and it's obvious that you're manipulating the light, with all these blue faces and gold surroundings. Put a filter on your flash to match the color temperature of the ambient, and now you're one step closer to achieving the blend, and when you adjust the white balance in post, it's all matching so you're not required to use LR4/CS5 or later, and a series of brush adjustments, you just need to grab the WB slider and fine tune.

I'm trying right now to dig up an Adorama, Joe McNally explanation, as one of his videos was the first time it was explained in a manner that it all clicked for me.

These aren't them, same concept, though a bit Nikon specific.
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=ntoRpQCY60U
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=W3azZ0wIXpo

Ok you've got some modifiers and can get the flash off camera, that's going to be huge; and it sounds like you're planning to use the strobe as a key light. I'd probably put the flash off to a side and start with the 45/45 (up/to the side), and perhaps if I could prop it up, use a reflector (white/silver/gold depending on the color of the light) low and to the other side to soften the shadows a little more or help boost the front light if the sun happens to be a bit strong.

Shutter dictates the ambient, aperture dictates the flash strength and the DOF, ISO will help the camera be more sensitive to the flash, and closer proximity will make the flash brighter and soften shadows.

If you decide to go manual, I've heard a good starting point is 1/125 f5.6 ISO 100; though that's more where I start when working flash only, I'd probably take an ambient, start the flash at half power dial it up or down until it looks even (so for example if your flash goes 1/1-1/32 start at 1/16 too bright go 1/24 too dark go 1/8, then move in that same split the difference until it's where I want it), adjust the color, add the reflector as a subtle fill; pose everyone and snap away. If you've got a friend that's willing to pose or even a basketball you can practice during the week.

deronsizemore wrote in post #16351005
He was using a light meter for everything too which I don't have, so I'll just have to rely more on some trial and error to get the shots.

If you know the guide number of your flash then you can calculate either the flash distance to subject or the aperture needed. While not necessarily exact, it will get you pretty close. You'll need to adjust if you use a modifier on the flash.

To calculate flash distance to subject - guide number divided by aperture.
To calculate aperture - guide number divided by flash to subject distance.

It's not as hard as it sounds. I created an excel sheet, printed, laminated, and keep it in my pocket for a quick glance when needed. Lots of articles on using guide numbers around. It'll help you with some of the "fumbling around for settings".

Motor On wrote in post #16351253
So basically your flash is roughly daylight balance (in experience I've always felt it a little cooler), the sunset is a nice rich warm amber, hence the term "golden hour". I don't have an example handy right now, but an hour earlier and I could've stepped outside and show you, but basically, the flash looks blue while the natural light looks orange, in Raw, one or the other is fine, but when you start mixing them it looks obvious that you used flash, so the blend is gone and it's obvious that you're manipulating the light, with all these blue faces and gold surroundings. Put a filter on your flash to match the color temperature of the ambient, and now you're one step closer to achieving the blend, and when you adjust the white balance in post, it's all matching so you're not required to use LR4/CS5 or later, and a series of brush adjustments, you just need to grab the WB slider and fine tune.

I'm trying right now to dig up an Adorama, Joe McNally explanation, as one of his videos was the first time it was explained in a manner that it all clicked for me.

These aren't them, same concept, though a bit Nikon specific.
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=ntoRpQCY60U
https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=W3azZ0wIXpo

Ok you've got some modifiers and can get the flash off camera, that's going to be huge; and it sounds like you're planning to use the strobe as a key light. I'd probably put the flash off to a side and start with the 45/45 (up/to the side), and perhaps if I could prop it up, use a reflector (white/silver/gold depending on the color of the light) low and to the other side to soften the shadows a little more or help boost the front light if the sun happens to be a bit strong.

Shutter dictates the ambient, aperture dictates the flash strength and the DOF, ISO will help the camera be more sensitive to the flash, and closer proximity will make the flash brighter and soften shadows.

If you decide to go manual, I've heard a good starting point is 1/125 f5.6 ISO 100; though that's more where I start when working flash only, I'd probably take an ambient, start the flash at half power dial it up or down until it looks even (so for example if your flash goes 1/1-1/32 start at 1/16 too bright go 1/24 too dark go 1/8, then move in that same split the difference until it's where I want it), adjust the color, add the reflector as a subtle fill; pose everyone and snap away. If you've got a friend that's willing to pose or even a basketball you can practice during the week.

Ah, that makes sense now about the gels.

Yes, you're correct. I'm planning on using the strobe as a key light, not fill light. Sorry, still learning terminology. So, for a model that's standing, you're saying you'd have it low and at a 45 degree angle with the flash pointing 45 degrees up at the model with the reflector on the opposite side of the model? Is there a reason you'd be shooting up rather than around eye level? Shooting through an umbrella, or no? I've seen videos doing it both ways.

I had read previously that shutter dictates the ambient and aperture dictates the flash strength. I guess I don't quite understand this yet. When I'm messing around here in the house, and I adjust the shutter from say 1/160s to 1/10s, of course this over exposes the shot. Is that just a result of more ambient light and not anything to do with the flash (since the flash fires so quickly)?

I'll see if I can practice on my wife or daughter. I try to practice on my daughter most of the time but her lately, she's not really up for the task.

Last question... how do you like the 135L? I was thinking about renting it for the portraits.

Thanks

D Thompson wrote in post #16351311
If you know the guide number of your flash then you can calculate either the flash distance to subject or the aperture needed. While not necessarily exact, it will get you pretty close. You'll need to adjust if you use a modifier on the flash.

To calculate flash distance to subject - guide number divided by aperture.
To calculate aperture - guide number divided by flash to subject distance.

It's not as hard as it sounds. I created an excel sheet, printed, laminated, and keep it in my pocket for a quick glance when needed. Lots of articles on using guide numbers around. It'll help you with some of the "fumbling around for settings".

Thank you. I'll do some googling to see if I can get a better handle on it. As it is, I don't even know what a "guide" number is. So, I've got some work to do.

When using flash, it's often easier to use M mode on the camera than anything else.

Assuming you are indoors and that it's daylight, first turn the flash off, set an aperture you like (preferably not too small, or it will be hard on the flash to light up your subject) and set your camera to spot metering.
Aim at a window and adjust your exposure time to zero the meter in the camera. Take a picture.

If you did this right you have a correctly exposed scenario outside the window, but the room is pretty dark (depending on circumstances, but darker than outside).

Now turn the flash on, in E-TTL, don't change any settings on the camera and take another picture.

This should still give a correct exposure outdoors (you set that manually) and also a correct exposure indoors (E-TTL II measured that for you). The whole point of the exercise is that it's similar to using fill flash outdoors.

A guide number is a strength rating for a flash. At a certain ISO and reflector zoom setting, the flash has a certain guide number. The 600 EX-RT, for example, has guide number 60 m when zoomed to 200 mm coverage and using ISO 100. Which implies that if you use f/4 on your lens, the range will be 15 m at full power, since 60/4=15. There are tables in the flash' user's manual for what the guide number is at different zoom and power settings.

If you combine several flashes, you have to take the square root of the sum of the squares of the guide numbers to get the total guide number. Thus two 600 EX-RT and one 430 EX II will give guide number 95, when they are all firing at once.

apersson850 wrote in post #16354627
When using flash, it's often easier to use M mode on the camera than anything else.

Assuming you are indoors and that it's daylight, first turn the flash off, set an aperture you like (preferably not too small, or it will be hard on the flash to light up your subject) and set your camera to spot metering.
Aim at a window and adjust your exposure time to zero the meter in the camera. Take a picture.

If you did this right you have a correctly exposed scenario outside the window, but the room is pretty dark (depending on circumstances, but darker than outside).

Now turn the flash on, in E-TTL, don't change any settings on the camera and take another picture.

This should still give a correct exposure outdoors (you set that manually) and also a correct exposure indoors (E-TTL II measured that for you). The whole point of the exercise is that it's similar to using fill flash outdoors.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks. I'm going to give this a try tonight and see what kind of results I get. With my Sigma flash (I know, not the best but it was my first flash purchase) it seems that ETTL doesn't quite give me great results and I'm always saying "the hell with it" and flipping the flash over to manual and taking a few test shots until I get it looking right. Probably more a result of the flash just not being that great. It also appears that I can't change my settings in-camera to high speed sync for this flash. The options are "grayed" out thus can't be selected. Pretty sure I should just invest in a new flash.

apersson850 wrote in post #16354627
A guide number is a strength rating for a flash. At a certain ISO and reflector zoom setting, the flash has a certain guide number. The 600 EX-RT, for example, has guide number 60 m when zoomed to 200 mm coverage and using ISO 100. Which implies that if you use f/4 on your lens, the range will be 15 m at full power, since 60/4=15. There are tables in the flash' user's manual for what the guide number is at different zoom and power settings.

If you combine several flashes, you have to take the square root of the sum of the squares of the guide numbers to get the total guide number. Thus two 600 EX-RT and one 430 EX II will give guide number 95, when they are all firing at once.

Ah, that makes sense about the guide number. I'm pretty sure the using multiples flashes part though made my brain explode.

Outdoor fill is not as complicated as some would lead you to believe. But you have to think about the shot, and the ambient light, both on your subject and the background. How much light your flash provides depends on the situation. Click the link in my signature on how to use flash outdoors.

My usual approach is to use Tv mode at X-sync shutter speed (1/200 in your case). Experiment with Flash Exposure Compensation until you get the look you want.