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Thread started 13 Oct 2013 (Sunday) 16:34
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Lightroom is messing with my colors?

 
burninghotcheese
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Oct 13, 2013 16:34 |  #1

Hi guys,

I've never had this problem until today, but when I import photos through Lightroom, it seems to desaturate my colors. Of course, I can fix it, but I'd rather it not do that in the first place. I tried importing the same photo through Aperture and straight drag-and-drop from the card, and they're both fine - identical, and with brighter colors than the Lightroom version. Did I accidentally mess up an import setting in Lightroom or something? It's never been this way before.

Here are the samples. First one is straight from the SD card, second is through Lightroom:

IMAGE NOT FOUND
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IMAGE NOT FOUND
Content warning: data


Thanks!

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Motor ­ On
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Oct 13, 2013 17:33 |  #2

Are you using a picture style? If so that would be why it flashes the thumbnail with the picture style applied then strips it to just the raw file as it finishes loading.


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tzalman
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Oct 13, 2013 19:17 |  #3

Motor On wrote in post #16368258 (external link)
Are you using a picture style? If so that would be why it flashes the thumbnail with the picture style applied then strips it to just the raw file as it finishes loading.

You can't not have some P.S. set in the camera, but in principle you are right. One of the more vibrant Picture Styles, like Landscape or Standard, will make the embedded jpg more saturated and contrasty than LR's more moderate default processing ( not "just the Raw", which would be a dark, flat, black and white image).


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burninghotcheese
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Oct 13, 2013 20:06 |  #4

tzalman wrote in post #16368492 (external link)
You can't not have some P.S. set in the camera, but in principle you are right. One of the more vibrant Picture Styles, like Landscape or Standard, will make the embedded jpg more saturated and contrasty than LR's more moderate default processing ( not "just the Raw", which would be a dark, flat, black and white image).

Is there any way to turn off Lightroom processing and get it as is from the camera?


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Motor ­ On
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Oct 13, 2013 20:20 |  #5

burninghotcheese wrote in post #16368578 (external link)
Is there any way to turn off Lightroom processing and get it as is from the camera?

Download DPP (Digital Photo Professional should come with your canon camera available as free download on the camera support section of Canon's site). It'll store the picture styles and if you have it set the selected AF point. Could also shoot in +Jpeg where the picture styles are applied before the jpeg is written.

Standard picture style I notice a little LR adjustment, Neutral I notice no adjustment as it hits LR. Zeroing out any editing the camera would apply gets you as little as possible in camera editing, improving the odds that you'll see if the detail is there or the exposure needs adjustment, and won't be guessing if it's really bleeding or blown out or otherwise clipped

If you know you like say +10 vibrance and +5 contrast, make that a preset and just apply then sync and you can put it right back, without adding more than 10-15 seconds worth of work once you get it stored and shortcutted.


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tonylong
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Oct 14, 2013 00:52 |  #6

I keep my camera(s) set to the Neutral Picture Style, with Contrast and Saturation dialed all the way back to -4. That way the in-camera jpeg will align closely with Lightroom as will the Canon Raw software Digital Photo Professional (DPP) and computer "viewers" that will show you the jpeg that the camera embeds in a Raw file.

Now, the other scenario is that the OP could have some kind of settings set as the "default" Import/Develop settings. To the OP, go to the Develop panel, and press the Alt key and hit the "Set as Default" button at the bottom right. One of the options is to "Restore Adobe Default Settings". Click that and you can start from "scratch"!


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tzalman
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Oct 14, 2013 04:23 |  #7

burninghotcheese wrote in post #16368578 (external link)
Is there any way to turn off Lightroom processing and get it as is from the camera?

Exactly as it is from the camera, no. The demosaicing/conversion engine is quite different and although the DNG Camera Profiles are meant to emulate Canon profiles they are not exactly the same. However, by investing a bit of work you can create a preset or a new set of defaults that will be close. Shoot a Raw+jpg, display the jpg in a color managed application, in LR set the Camera Profile with the same name as the Picture Style used in the camera and work the sliders until the Raw preview looks like the jpg. In the left side panel click on the + next to the word Presets and make a new one with all the relevant settings. On the Import dialog, right side panel, set that profile to be automatically applied during import.
While doing this you might even get to a preset that you like even better than Canon processing.


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ChunkyDA
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Oct 15, 2013 20:04 |  #8

Why cant you just change the camera profile to the Canon one you like and use that as your default? This is in the Develop module right panel near the bottom. What am I missing here other than the math formulas are slightly different such as to be barely, if ever, noticeable.

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tzalman
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Oct 16, 2013 03:58 |  #9

ChunkyDA wrote in post #16374132 (external link)
Why cant you just change the camera profile to the Canon one you like and use that as your default? This is in the Develop module right panel near the bottom. What am I missing here other than the math formulas are slightly different such as to be barely, if ever, noticeable.

If you set a DNG Camera Profile with LR factory default settings a difference certainly will be very noticeable. That is because the Canon Picture Styles are preset packages that contain, in addition to the basic color profile, curves for increased contrast and saturation, a certain amount of sharpening and, if it is enabled in-camera, some NR that varies according to the ISO of the shot. The DNG Camera Profile is just the basic profile, LR default processing remains moderate, and to emulate the appearance of the equivalent P.S. will require a few minutes work.

Trying to copy the camera's jpg processing has always seemed to me like going to a 'haute couture' tailor and asking for a suit just like a picture in the Sears catalog.


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sarch99
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Oct 17, 2013 10:04 |  #10

What Chunky DA said. :-) It's a simple process to change the Lightroom Default settings...do a quick Google search on "change Lightroom default settings," and you'll be a happy camper. No need to mess with import presets if you have your defaults set up the way you want them.


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ChunkyDA
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Oct 19, 2013 21:27 |  #11

tzalman wrote in post #16374874 (external link)
If you set a DNG Camera Profile with LR factory default settings a difference certainly will be very noticeable. That is because the Canon Picture Styles are preset packages that contain, in addition to the basic color profile, curves for increased contrast and saturation, a certain amount of sharpening and, if it is enabled in-camera, some NR that varies according to the ISO of the shot. The DNG Camera Profile is just the basic profile, LR default processing remains moderate, and to emulate the appearance of the equivalent P.S. will require a few minutes work.

Trying to copy the camera's jpg processing has always seemed to me like going to a 'haute couture' tailor and asking for a suit just like a picture in the Sears catalog.

Elie, Could you please explain this and possibly provide an example of how noticeable the difference might be between say a DPP processed image (Canon's factory profile) and the same image with the LR default set to the same profile (Adobe best estimation of the factory settings). I don't understand where the difference is, especially since the camera profile in LR is like a starting point.

In other words: My theory is that DPP Camera Standard is not substantially different from LR5 Camera Standard


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tonylong
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Oct 19, 2013 23:07 |  #12

ChunkyDA wrote in post #16383938 (external link)
Elie, Could you please explain this and possibly provide an example of how noticeable the difference might be between say a DPP processed image (Canon's factory profile) and the same image with the LR default set to the same profile (Adobe best estimation of the factory settings). I don't understand where the difference is, especially since the camera profile in LR is like a starting point.

In other words: My theory is that DPP Camera Standard is not substantially different from LR5 Camera Standard

I'm not Elie and won't answer for him...but:):

Elie was referring to the Lightroom default for your initial DNG prevue. The Lightroom default is not the one seeking to emulate the Canon Standard Picture Style. The LR default is the "Adobe Standard" profile which doesn't present the increases of Saturation, Contrast, Sharpening, etc., that you see with the Canon Standard Picture Style. To match the Adobe "Standard", in fact, you can set the camera (and/or DPP) to the Neutral Picture Style and in fact in that Picture Style you can dial back the Contrast and Saturation all the way back to -4 (dial back Sharpening as well) and the result in DPP will actually be quite close to the Adobe Standard profile (you can adjust the individual settings to taste).

Of course you could also select a camera profile from the Adobe profiles list, whatever works, and you can even choose to make a particular profile (such as "Camera Standard") your default LR profile!


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tzalman
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Oct 20, 2013 05:44 |  #13

To understand the differences between Canon defaults in DPP and Adobe defaults in LR/ACR (note that I am only talking about factory defaults because it is intrinsic to Raw that most of the default settings can be freely changed although there are some functions that you don't get to play with), we need to start with a history lesson. So don your school uniforms, girls with skirts to one inch below the knee and boys with those smart blazers with the POTN crest.

When Canon started selling digital SLRs it seemed obvious to them that because of the price the buyers would be professionals and advanced amateurs, the sort of people who, even if they shot jpgs, would want to at least tweak it in PS, if not more. So they made their jpg processing fairly light-handed, the kind that would be easy to override. Then after a few years they discovered that with a CMOS sensor they could cut their costs and market a cheaper product and the Drebel, the 300D, created a mini-revolution by being the first DSLR under $1,000. The 300D and the 350D still had that bland jpg processing, but when Nikon responded with their own consumer priced models their market research told them that the costumers would be people who wouldn't spend money on PS and a lot of them wouldn't be interested in editing jpgs even with cheaper software. So they designed their cameras to spit out a finished product, contrasty to the point of black clipping, saturated and sharp. And Canon sales dropped. They responded by going one better - starting with the 30D and the 5D and then the 400D, not only did they jazz up their default processing, they even gave the user a choice of Picture Styles (among them they retained the old traditional Canon style and called it Neutral). Default was Standard P.S. - a preset package that added to the basic camera color profile (a different generic devise-dependent profile for each model) additional separate tone curves for each RGB channel in order to do the "jazzing up" and some automatic middle-of-the-scale settings for the user adjustable camera parameters.

It now became necessary to put these same innovations into DPP. IIRC, from DPP 2.0.

Adobe at the same time was developing ACR. The first plugin was sold as an add-on for PS 7, but when that was replaced by PSCS, ACR was included in the package. And ACR was potted into the new Lightroom. The Adobe designers used the same logic that the Canon designers had used originally - it seemed obvious that they were addressing an audience of people who came to tinker; so like Canon in the early days, they made their defaults moderate, bland and boring. They created a basic profile and then tweaked it for each camera model based on a quick test of a rented, borrowed, or otherwise acquired copy. (We are talking about dozens and eventually many scores of cameras) This practice created a lot of unhappy ACR/LR users. The rendering of reds, oranges and yellows was really more fantasy than reality. The manufacturers were making much better profiles; they not only could devote more time to it, they also had closely guarded insider knowledge about their sensor modules - how they see colors and how they turn the colors to Raw digital data. People started clamoring for "Canon color" and "Nikon color", etc. In 2008 Adobe's Eric Chan directed a long project, first to construct an improved matrix profile, the basis, with LUTS for individual models, of today's Adobe Standard, and then to build for all the major models a series of DNG Camera Profiles that would emulate the makers' Picture Styles. However, they remained true to their original design philosophy by not creating the same sort of preset profile+extras packages that the makers were putting in the cameras. The user can of course add in that extra contrast, saturation and sharpness, but we said at the beginning that we are talking about factory defaults.

From the beginning there were also complaints about the demosaicing engine in ACR. The first one was too noisy and after a while it was switched to a smoother rendering, but then there were complaints that detail was being lost. Finally, after they worked out how to include better NR in the parametric workflow, they went back to a more detailed and noisy conversion in LR3/ACR6. Canon has also quietly done some tweaking of their demosaicer; as it stands today DPP's rendering is a bit more smeary than Adobe's (IMO).

There is one further very noticeable difference between DPP and LR/ACR, to my eyes at least, and that is the way partially clipped highlights are handled. "Partial" meaning one or two but not all three channels are clipped. This situation can cause false colors in the highlights. Suppose we have a color that theoretically should be 280/240/230 but it can't be encoded thus because 255 is the maximum, so it becomes 255/240/230. The red channel is clipped and detail-less, the proper balance between the channels is destroyed and the resultant color is false. DPP takes the position that prevention is better than cure and routinely clips all the highlights slightly, throwing away data that might be problematic and pruning back to a point where there is no falsification of the relations between the channels. Other Raw converters attempt to do recovery of the partially clipped highlights, since LR4/ACR7 Adobe even does some of it automatically, without asking permission.

OK, class is out. No rowdiness in the schoolyard!


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Oct 20, 2013 09:26 |  #14

tzalman wrote in post #16384453 (external link)
DPP takes the position that prevention is better than cure and routinely clips all the highlights slightly, throwing away data that might be problematic and pruning back to a point where there is no falsification of the relations between the channels.

Do you mean that in your example, the 255,240,230 become 255,255,255 (in DPP) ?


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tzalman
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Oct 20, 2013 11:14 |  #15

yb98 wrote in post #16384738 (external link)
Do you mean that in your example, the 255,240,230 become 255,255,255 (in DPP) ?

Let me see how I can explain what I mean:
Up above I invented a color to use as an example, 280/240/230. I want to change that example now to 280/140/140 because in this color the red is exactly twice the green and the blue, which makes it easier to calculate lighter or darker versions of the same color, as long as R=2x/G=x/B=x. But we know that 280/140/140 will have to be written 255/140/140. This is not our original color or even a darker version of it. It is a false color.
If we have a gradient:
230/115/115
240/120/120
250/125/125
260/130/130
270/135/135
280/140/140
the last three shades of our color will be written as:
255/130/130
255/135/135
255/140/140
but if we clip the Raw data and discard the brightest data, we are left with 230/115/115 as our brightest shade, no more false color. This can be scaled up to 255/127/127 by pushing the "exposure", but we have lost DR and possibly lost detail that was thrown out with the bathwater.


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