You Might want to re-think that 7DII Purchase

kin2son wrote in post #16412683
To be blutally honest, any consumer crop camera can handle motorbike shot. It's one dimenisonal, predictable, and all you need is one centre point.

Just look at speedync's work all done with 550D -

https://photography-on-the.net …?p=15905678&pos​tcount=472

Plenty more motorbike panning shot on his flickr stream. I don't see anything that mirrorless can't do.

The first motorcycle shot above was f/5.6 at 420mm. I've shot a T2i in a lot of situations, and your keeper rate in that turn at that FL is going to be horrible. No way a mirrorless could churn out keepers with that shot.

Another example where I have demonstrated that a T2i can't keep up. The poor thing could barely focus on the faster butterfly swimmers, but the 1D3 nails it at 10fps. Again, no current or announced mirrorless is going to pull this off at f/2.8:

jrbdmb wrote in post #16413673
Good point. It is true that most buy a crop camera now because it is a cheaper alternative to FF. If that advantage is (almost) eliminated by sub-$1000 FF cameras, then you could see two crop DSLRs in Canon's future lineup:

- Super cheap Rebel for those who value low price above all else
- Expensive 7D follow-on for enthusiasts/pros who need a crop sensor

Either way, crop DSLRs aren't going to go away in the immediate future.

And where exactly did you unearth this tidbit of (mis)information? I provided a link showing that mirrorless sales are dropping, please provide a link proving that nobody is buying 1.6 crop sensor cameras anymore.

If you read the article that i posted, the man spells it out for you. Consumer camera sales are falling into the toilet. 35-40% off in most markets.

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16413711
FF lens prices did scare me out of the market, though. If I buy a 6D/5D3, I have to spend a ton of $$$ on 16-35II and 24-70 2.8 or 4 to replace my 10-22 and 15-85. Too much money for me.

I'm in the same boat. Several have suggested my next upgrade be FF but when I calculate the actual cost of the extra lenses, CPL filters, etc., I figure it will cost me around $7k to get where I am now with an APS-C camera.

umphotography wrote in post #16414209
If you read the article that i posted, the man spells it out for you. Consumer camera sales are falling into the toilet. 35-40% off in most markets.

And just how do you come to the conclusion that this statistic supports the impending death of APSc? I expect decent phone/cameras to replace the pocket P&S. Duh! Why have two devices to take crappy snapshots with? The dSLR is a different animal.

The facebook/twitter crowd is satisfied with that equipment. Any who cares about IQ is not. Period. Full stop. End of sentence. Modern dSLR make it easier for a novice to get into photography relatively cheaply. My daughter is a good example. Her first child is 4 years old. She went from a Kodak P&S to an S100 last year. She is not satisfied with it, primarily because of its limited abilities. She is considering an entry level dSLR. She can get a good used T2i with an 18-135 for less money than than an SX50HS, and get better IQ to boot. I let her shoot my 60D on GreenBox. She is amazed how quickly it focuses, how quickly the shutter responds to the button, and the IQ for her 'snapshots'.

I don't see APSc going anywhere. The widespread availability of inexpensive camera phones has brought photography to the masses. Surely some of them care about the quality of what they are shooting. That will drive APSc sales for years to come.

On the other hand, I tried Window 3.1 about 20 years ago. My reaction? This $#!T will never catch on! I've been wrong before.

kin2son wrote in post #16412683
I think I need to make myself more clear and specific...

When I say crop, I mean consumer crop, and that's what the article's about.

Therefore I don't think 1D4 counts.

To be blutally honest, any consumer crop camera can handle motorbike shot. It's one dimenisonal, predictable, and all you need is one centre point.

Just look at speedync's work all done with 550D -

https://photography-on-the.net …?p=15905678&pos​tcount=472

Plenty more motorbike panning shot on his flickr stream. I don't see anything that mirrorless can't do.

Sorry, maybe I should have dug some older stuff I shot with my 300D, 30D or 40D, excuse me for upgrading to a body that not only makes it easier to get the shots but also process them and then choosing to use it. If I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to budget a 1DIV I'd be using a 7D(it was hard choice for me to give up the extra pixel density), X0D, XX0D or whatever would be the best tool I could afford.

My point is that crop senors are very popular for these types of shots because they allow you to use smaller/lighter/cheape​r lenses than FF bodies(at current pixel density) while having AF system that can consistently lock and track subjects. Mirrorless isn't there yet, hell some models even beat SLRs in shutter lag now.

I know it's possible to get shots even with the most limiting of gear, but most people don't want to spend a whole day shooting to only come out with a handful of good photos when something else could have given them a much higher keeper rate. As you know you can even manually pre-focus and time your shot and get some great shots, you're just not going to get as many having an AF system that can track them up to the shutter going.

Also just because shot appears like pretty much any camera locked focus on it that might be the case. The first bike shot and even the particular BIF shot I posted weren't that demanding for AF and I'm sure any of the mirrorless with better AF could have produced a decent keeper rate. Most of the locations I shot at at that track I only had a few meters to lock focus and take the shot of bikes going around 150+kmh. The second bike shot my 5DIII and 1DIV both struggle at times because of what you don't see in the picture, well I just happened to had taken a 10FPS burst of 1 of the bikes going around the entire corner, by luck I happened to catch the bike in the fence opening and you can also see that there was a corner worker on each side of the opening(marshals wouldn't allow photogs to stand in this corner's opening).

IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …83602155@N04/10​073326785/

waterrockets wrote in post #16414136
...
Another example where I have demonstrated that a T2i can't keep up. The poor thing could barely focus on the faster butterfly swimmers, but the 1D3 nails it at 10fps. Again, no current or announced mirrorless is going to pull this off at f/2.8:

I have to ask what lens you had on the T2i that couldn't keep up? My T1i could easily handle something moving as slowly as a swimmer, in AI-Servo with decent glass. My 60D does a fine job of my dog coming straight at me on a dead run, with decent glass. And that dog is easily moving at 10 times the speed of the swimmer. I wouldn't expect an 18-55 or 18-135 to handle that so well. My 15-85 and Σ70-200 2.8 acquit themselves nicely. I am quite certain you don't need a 1D3 to get in-focus shots of something moving that slowly.

The problem with crops is the lenses.

Many years ago you got an SLR.
You knew what a 50mm lens did.
No matter what SLR you had it was 50mm.

Now a consumer buys a crop (Rebel?) and gets the 50mm, but it doesn't "look" like a 50mm. The salesman tells him if he wants it to look like a 50mm he needs to get a FF.
OK fine... then the consumer sees the FF prices.

Canon should forget crops.
Bring out FF for all DSLRs, and price them as crops are now.
If the 6D was the price of the 60D I bet they'd sell truck loads.

If the next Canon FF was the size, weight, and (most importantly) price of the new 100D (SL1) they'd crack the DSLR market wide open overnight. Nobody would buy a crop camera ever again.

PH68 wrote in post #16414538
The problem with crops is the lenses.

Many years ago you got an SLR.
You knew what a 50mm lens did.
No matter what SLR you had it was 50mm.

Now a consumer buys a crop (Rebel?) and gets the 50mm, but it doesn't "look" like a 50mm. The salesman tells him if he wants it to look like a 50mm he needs to get a FF.
OK fine... then the consumer sees the FF prices.

Canon should forget crops.
Bring out FF for all DSLRs, and price them as crops are now.
If the 6D was the price of the 60D I bet they'd sell truck loads.

If the next Canon FF was the size, weight, and (most importantly) price of the new 100D (SL1) they'd crack the DSLR market wide open overnight. Nobody would buy a crop camera ever again.

Faulty logic. A consumer who buys an APSc body today has no expectations of what a particular lens 'looks' like. They shoot what they get with the camera. If they buy another lens, they shoot that, with absolutely no regard to what the same FL would look like on any other format.

The other fallacy is that people rely on a salesman for their hardware purchases. There are few consumers who do that in the days of instant information online.

EDIT: A consumer is more likely to upgrade to FF after reading fora like this one.

kin2son wrote in post #16412123
I agree, and I think it will happen much less than 5 years.

The future is ff mirrorless (just look at A7/A7R) and mobile device. Nobody needs crop DSLR.

The A7r is pitched against the FF cameras, not crop cameras. As much as I'm looking forward to the Sony releases, the A7r cannot outdo my 7D for wildlife. It's more likely to spank the 6D/5D in their traditional landscape/portrait genres.
In work I recently came across a colleague using a P&S to try to photograph a water meter in a ceiling void which was facing upwards. The flash was blowing out the image by bouncing off the glass face of the water meter. I took over with my Samsung Galaxy III and, one image later my colleague had a clear picture to take a reading.
Smart phones are now VERY capable devices, they're very portable and are always with us. It's only wildlife images that they cannot replicate at present..........

I want to see an SI shooter show up at the next SuperBowl sporting only his smartphone.

I'm an old school photographer who came through 2 1/4 square, remember those, then 35mm, when I bought my first digital SLR I was completely unaware of crops and FF, however my 350D seemed an excellent bit of kit and the principles I had been applying with my Olympus OM1n still worked. I appreciate that 50mm appears to give an image as though taken with an 80mm lens but I can work round that without expending too much brain power.

Yes DOF is greater with a crop though it seems preciously narrow when shooting birds with a 500mm. If I went FF I would need an 800mm lens to match my crop, apart from the additional bulk and weight I doubt the finances would suffice, so as far as I'm concerned a crop is still a great bit of kit and I haven't yet found a subject that I cannot shoot with it. For the casual grab shot down the pub the phone would suffice, but I don't feel a pressing need to go FF just because I come across a nice view to photograph.

Incidentally I'm looking forward to the 7D2, hopefully sooner rather than later.

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16412402
Still waiting for...
The printing press to kill education.
Penicillin to eradicate disease.
The telephone to make writing obsolete.
The Kindle to make books obsolete.
The internet to kill the Post Office.
The personal flying car.
TV to kill radio.
Cold fusion to work.
The second coming.
Air Traffic Control to move out of the 1950s.
Yada-yada-yada.


Lots of silly predictions are made every day. I don't see any reason at all to believe this is not just one more for the list.

I think the Post Office one is closest...

In a way the cell phone has put the nail in the coffin. Just look at the newspapers that are purging their photo staff and letting reporters capture the scene with their cell phone.

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16414347
I have to ask what lens you had on the T2i that couldn't keep up? My T1i could easily handle something moving as slowly as a swimmer, in AI-Servo with decent glass. My 60D does a fine job of my dog coming straight at me on a dead run, with decent glass. And that dog is easily moving at 10 times the speed of the swimmer. I wouldn't expect an 18-55 or 18-135 to handle that so well. My 15-85 and Σ70-200 2.8 acquit themselves nicely. I am quite certain you don't need a 1D3 to get in-focus shots of something moving that slowly.

Same lens, same light, same day. 70-200 f/2.8L. I was able to get in focus on the T2i, just not consistently. The challenge is not the speed of the swimmer, but the small amount of time their face spends out of the water during the butterfly stroke. The T2i doesn't have the AF customization available to tell it to linger when the swimmer vanishes between strokes. Then, when the subject reappears, it has to try to recognize the focusable edges and start moving the lens, all while the processor is sharing the load with writing 18MP images at 3.4FPS as the buffer is dwindling.

1D3 lets me tell the AF system to cool its jets and wait for the subject to return, and it has a processor dedicated to this job.

Then take into account that I'm shooting 70 swimmers in 3 hours. With the T2i, to get enough keepers, I had to send kids through 2-3 times. With the 1D3, I only need 2-3 strokes to come out with 20 keepers. We're talking about 2x as many keepers in about 10% of the time.

Keep in mind that I'm shooting f/2.8 telephoto, giving me a very thin DoF. The T2i just can't handle it at a rate that will keep the customers rolling through.

If I take my absolute best T2i swimming photo, the IQ doesn't hold a candle to what my 1D3 can catch on accident. I shot with the T2i for 2.5 years, pushing it as far as I could as a sports body. I got great results (many kids have a large canvas over their bed from these shots), but it's a big challenge, and often frustrating. When it came time to upgrade, I knew exactly what I needed, and it came down to a close race between the 1D3 and the 7D.

waterrockets,
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I understand where you are coming from now. Catching my dog doesn't compare.