6D users, don't kill me...

gabebalazs wrote in post #16413897
No, I don't think it's a Rebel. Far from it.

Having owned 7 different Rebels (all of them except the T5i), and the 40D, 50D, 60D, and 7D, I find that the 6D is much closer to the build, handling, and ergonomics of the xxD and 7D than to a Rebel. Calling it a Rebel is foolish. Calling it an affordable, light, and feature rich full framer with great IQ is more correct

But hey, I'm used to it, just like hearing that the AF of the 6D is crap, unusable etc. I heard it so much that I actually had to make my scientific comparison test, recorded on video where it turns out that my 6D was a little bit faster focusing than my 7D (testing BOTH center and off center points, albeit with a static subject under medium light.)
It's always the same song...

For instance it's so funny how the 5DII AF system, while admittedly not very advanced, never stopped hundreds or thousands of working pros from taking awesome, award winning images, and making a living as a pros. The 5DII became a legend. Now, the 6D's AF system is all of a sudden crap and unusable, when it is actually better than the 5DII's and the camera produces even more stellar photos than the 5DII
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As for the build quality, I find it very good, and more comfortable than my 7D. I'm the same way with my 70D also.

In terms of weather sealing, I'm pretty sure the 5DII and the 6D are similar, so in my opinion stating something like you shouldn't take a 6D out in rain but can take a 5DII out is nonsense If the conditions are so bad that they kill a 6D, they will surely kill a 5DII also.

I wonder how many of us here really require bulletproof construction. I'd bet most people here who own a 7D, 5DIII, never even come close to really testing the durability, weather sealing of their cameras. Most of us here use our cameras under reasonable conditions. We're not made of money we don't want to risk damaging our "baby"

I have no comment on GPS. But I think the wifi features are great. I can't tell you how many of my wildlife photographer friends wanted some kind of way to remotely control a camera to take unusual wildlife shots (such as birds with a wide angle lens). Now with wifi and the apps it's possible. I also heard of wedding photographers who started setting up a 6D at a fixed spot at receptions to take a wide angle shot of the guests and the hall controlling the camera from anywhere in the room from their smart phone. So there are a lot of creative applications of wifi. Does everybody need that? Of course not. But it's there and it's got its potential. There is actually a version of the 6D that does not have wifi or GPS it's just not available on the US market as far as I know.

I am very happy that Canon introduced the 6D. Excellent image quality, rivaling if not slightly surpassing the 5DIII in a smaller, lighter, much more affordable package.

By the way, HERE are a bunch of air show photos from the summer, taken with my 6D in AI Servo mode and a far from ideal Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS + 2x TC combo. I was in Hungary where my wife and I got married, so I did not particularly prepare for shooting an airshow. Still the images came out excellent.

That's an extremely well written post, and if you're points aren't good enough - your pictures certainly back up your statement!

I purchased the 6D and always felt a little 'ripped off' with some of those features, not because I use them (or miss them), but because of the negative talk (marketing?) pushing for a 5Diii, making me feel like I am 'missing out'.

After reading your post, and seeing your shots - well... it's just another great reminder (something I have to be reminded of so often), that it's not just the equipment, it's how you use it, and if I can't pull off the photo's I want with the features I have with the 6D it's time to stop expecting technology to patch up my weak spots, and get to work on improving myself.

Sure the 5D has some nicer features, but after considering the sort of photography I do, I don't think I'd see one iota of difference in quality if I was shooting with a 5D3 or a 6D.

You may not convince everyone - but your post really has made a different to the way I see things. Thanks!

"The glass is neither half full, nor half empty but twice as large as it needs to be." - An engineer.

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #16420174
I've read people say this in several threads, moaning about the lack of extra cross types in the 6D, so again, Canon's marketing is working.

There is a huge jump to the 61 points of the 5D3 - 41 cross and 5 center points are double-cross type. So people who really cares about lots of crosses would still stay with the 5D3.

Don't you find it interesting that the 700D have 9 full-cross points? Canon product marketing is a bit uneven in their decisions.

And here I thought all regulars knew about the dark side.

When debating pro/con of a product, it's logical to debate as a consumer, not as a producer. It is consumer demands that drives most markets. Canon needs the customers to say: the 6D should have had all cross-type AF points.

Remember that small cards means swapping cards. Lots of lost photos on lost cards. Especially if switching cards outdoors where it might not be possible to find.

People probably don't see any other camera as better for the same price. But that doesn't change the fact that the AF is a weakness. All it does is making sure people doesn't find a good alternative. This might give sales of some extra 5D3 but also loss of sales of some 6D followed by loss of sales of a number of lenses when people stay with EFs cameras/lenses. So it really isn't obvious that Canon makes more money by skipping the crosses.

Next thing is that the jump from crop to full-frame can be an important stamp-off to go for a camera with Exmor sensor.

So even if I consider the 6D a good buy, I consider Canon's decision a bad one.

well this thread certainly has been entertaining

FWIW, i am shooting with a 5d3, but have shot with friend's 5d2 and 6d

i think it's safe to say 5D3's af system is much more advanced than that of the 5d2/6d in terms of overall performance and how customisable it is, i don't think people can argue there and you are certainly paying a premium for it

but lesser does not = incapable, which seems to be what some people are suggesting, and is down right silly, as far as i am concerned 6d af system is very capable, demonstrated by a few people in this thread already, just because it doesn't match up to that of the 5d3 (and it's not meant to be) it doesn't make it bad, far from it, and the functions and image quality at that price point makes 6d a great buy for a good majority of people

and to the OP: omg, build quality, really? maybe i am a bit retarded, but i have to think pretty hard to "feel" this supposedly inferior build of the 6d, i definitely don't notice it when i'm busy shooting, i'd say it's lighter ya, but the way you put it the 6d crumbles when you pick it up, and let's face it, you drop either the 5d3 or 6d i think chances are you're going to have problems, if anything having more plastic might absorb the shock better, i'd rather have better weather sealing (which i remember reading 6d is better than 5d2, i could be wrong) and image quality then to worry about one camera using a bit more plastic than the other

if canon brings out a 6d2 tomoro cased in a rebel body but is 100% weatherproof and has the IQ of a medium format sensor you bet i'll be first in line to buy that camera

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #16420174
Yes, I agree, the 5D3 is a semi-pro camera, but there are a lot of people out there who are not in any way a pro and buy it simply because they want the extra AF points. I've read people say this in several threads, moaning about the lack of extra cross types in the 6D, so again, Canon's marketing is working.

Care to elaborate what's wrong with wanting extra AF points?

Just because you like using your MF lens doesn't mean others shoot like you.

So only pros deserve more cross type points and amateur doesn't ever need more than one?

Is that what you are implying?

Fact - if one wants ff AND a capable AF system, you buy a 5D3/1DX regardless whether you are a pro or not.

Sold my 5D3 to downgrade to a 6D. 6D lifts shadows better, lighter, quieter shutter in non-silent mode. Miss the 5D3 joystick and grouped cross points but I'll live. No regrets and $1200 richer.

If I shot a lot of more actiony stuff, 5D3 all the way. 6D outer points are better than 5D2 (I owned it twice) but just cannot compete with 5D3 focusing.

Well, 23 pages and still going. It's the Energizer Thread! One of the most entertaining I've ever seen on POTN. It is fascinating because it contains not one iota of new information. Yet it grows like a California wildfire.

Back story: I am a hobbyist/snap-shooter who has been doing this for some 40 years. I am retired so I have time to read this stuff. I could get a 5DIII, if I decided I really needed one. I currently shoot a 60D and a 5D(c - for some of you) with some fair-to-middlin' glass.

My (mostly irrelevant) thoughts on the 6D/5D3 debate follow. I would like better ISO performance and faster lenses than I have for my 60D. I am satisfied with its AF performance. I would like to be able to shoot my 5D at 6400 or 12800. I find its AF performance to be a bit lacking, but, in the main, adequate.

Surely, the 5D3 would cover the short-comings of my current equipment. But at a cost of almost $8,000: 5D3, 16-35II, 24-70II. I feel I would need that glass to cover the loss of my 10-22 and 15-85. I am good above 70mm. If it were just the cost of the camera, I'd already own it.

A reasonable alternative for me would be the 6D. With this body, I would keep my APSc stuff and only really need a kit lens like the 24-105. I could even get by with my current 28-75. The only lens I would add would be the 24mm f/1.4 II, I think. IMHO, Canon marketing missed the mark by a country mile with the 6D. If the goal was to get guys like me to move to FF, they failed miserably.

Specifics:
WIFI & GPS: I have no use for them, hence, no appeal.
1/180: Irrelevant no brainer. HSS at 1/200 costs almost no power at all.
1/4000: I don't own any fast primes, but that 24 1.4 could be an issue here. Maybe.
11-point AF with one cross: This is a killer for me. Don't tell me how good it is. I don't care what you think of it. I buy things based on what I think of them. I think Canon shorted this camera huge by not included a 7D-like AF system in it. Witness the 70D. It would have cost them less to use the old system. They had to spend money to design/build the 6D's system. The could have built-in the 7D AF system (unchanged, or 70D-like) at no cost. I honestly believe that would have improved sales. I know at least one person who isn't buying the 6D because of the intentionally (over) crippled AF system, me.

Please don't get your shorts all twisted about this. (In this thread, unlikely.) I realize that if I can make the 5Dc AF system work, that I would most likely be OK with the 6D AF system. My point is that if I spend $2000 for a new camera, I want a new camera, not a (marketing department) dumbed-down camera designed to protect sales of their 5D3. Rational? Not really. But one fact remains. It is my money. I'm keeping it.

One good thing has come out of this. I have learned how to PP my ISO 3200+ shots for better noise performance. A special thanks to TeamSpeed and his great thread on the matter. I can get good ISO 6400, and useable 12800, shots out of my 60D. It requires me to spend a bit of time in LR. The 6D can handle these levels in JPG. For the 90 seconds it takes me to touch up ISO 6400 shots, the math just doesn't work for a $2,000 6D. I want more for my money than ISO performance. BTW, I got about 2 stops of useable ISO performance out of learning to shoot the 60D raw and PP. The best I can hope for if shooting the 6D JPG is one more stop. Seems I got more for my money by NOT spending it. If the 6DII has the 70D's AF system, I'm in.

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16420293
IMHO, Canon marketing missed the mark by a country mile with the 6D. If the goal was to get guys like me to move to FF, they failed miserably.

Let's just say that Canon clearly isn't targeting you or the majority of 5D2 owners.

Even the higher end xxD and 7D owners who actually appreciate their current AF system will either wait for 7D2 or keep saving towards the 5D3.

It is mainly to lure the Rebel owners who only cares about ff (wowzer!) and ISO performance, which imo is the typical and most common rookie mistake.

Just go to the lens thread. There are many 'what lens' question from new 6D owners upgraded from Rebels. I ain't just making things up

Again what I described doesn't represent all 6D owners. If you clearly understand and accept all the pros and cons of the 6D, good on you, it's a great camera at a bargain price

hes gone wrote in post #16419518
=he's gone;16419518]The 6D center point is the best available on any canon body. Hard to imagine a TC messing it up. Just don't cripple it with some off brand lens with a reverse engineered focusing system.

ummm, I most definitly plan on using my sigma 1.4 and sigma 100-300f4

Gabe already proved that should be quite fine. I shoot surfing for fun, not enough to justify a crazy telephoto, but I scored a last model year sigma 100-300 for $700 new and I jumped on it. That and my sweet Pentax Super takumar are the only lenses I have that will cross over, which is good because I will need the manual focus lens to overcome the 6D inability to lock focus

Actually the one thing stopping me from buying a 6d today is the lack of and seemingly no answer soon to the dark sides 14-24. I have also thought about switching systems for my FF kit just for that, and still may but I just hate the ergonomics of their cameras and not sharing some lenses. I am really hopeful sigma is close to dropping a bomb on this range like they did with their crop lens. I love what they have cooking lately and despite all the complaints my lens collection is basically sigma ex and I think they are underrated.

kin2son wrote in post #16420301
...

It is mainly to lure the Rebel owners who only cares about ff (wowzer!) and ISO performance, which imo is the typical and most common rookie mistake.

...

I don't buy your position. You don't give Rebel users enough credit. I know a girl who makes a living with a T2i, 18-55, 55-250 and a 50 1.8. She does weddings and birthday party stuff. Her equipment isn't the best. Her talents are.

Back to the 6D thing. The 60D had 9 cross points and a center f/2.8 dual cross 3 years ago. The 7D had 19 cross points 4 years ago. The current Rebel T5i has 9 cross points with a center f/2.8 diagonal cross. If Canon were trying to entice 'Rebel' shooters to full-frame, why not offer them at least the AF system that has been available on Rebels for several years? Why go to all the trouble to dumb it down? I consider this AF system inferior to that of my 60D. This wasn't designed as a Rebel upgrade. It was designed for people who don't shoot a lot of action. It would have been a more versatile camera with a better AF system. I don't think the ability to focus slowly in low-light is an asset. I'd rather have a flexible AF system that works well in decent light. A 7D (or 70D) like AF system would have made this camera a much better seller. Canon crippled the 6D to protect sales of the 5D3. That was a mistake. It cost them sales on the 6D. People who could stretch their budgets to the 6D, but not the 5D3, weren't going to buy the 5D3 anyway.

Somewhere in this thread is a quote from a Canon official re the 6D. Paraphrased: 'We made what we thought they wanted. We got hammered for it.' Really? People actually asked for a less-than-Rebel AF system? Methinks not. And this is not to mention the 1/180; c'mon the 5Dc did 1/200 9 years ago, it can't be that hard. And the 1/4000 100K shutter. Really, people asked for a less useful, under-warranty'd shutter? Canon doesn't even believe that. The 6D is a marketing mistake, plain and simple. It may be a damn-fine camera. I have no opinion on that; I don't own one. From a marketing perspective it is a colossal failure.

kin2son wrote in post #16420301
Let's just say that Canon clearly isn't targeting you or the majority of 5D2 owners.

Even the higher end xxD and 7D owners who actually appreciate their current AF system will either wait for 7D2 or keep saving towards the 5D3.

It is mainly to lure the Rebel owners who only cares about ff (wowzer!) and ISO performance, which imo is the typical and most common rookie mistake.

I don't buy that they aimed the 6D for Rebel users.

But they did one very strange thing, in regards to 5D2 owners.

A 5D2 owner who makes his income from photography shouldn't need to think long to get a 5D3 - A few extra sold images covers the price difference compared to the 6D. And the 5D3 is a "safer" choice.

But a very large number of 5D2 are hobbyists. Lots of them will not take the cost of a 5D3. The 6D would have been like a fly paper to all those 5D2 owners if it had come with 7D-class AF. Then it would have covered both IQ and AF in a good way, with Wi-Fi as a bonus. I think Canon's decision will scare away many customers. A big migration 5D2 -> 6D, followed by 5D -> 5D2, xxD -> 5D, xxD -> 5D2 will become a much smaller migration.

YashicaFX2 wrote in post #16420347
Back to the 6D thing. The 60D had 9 cross points and a center f/2.8 dual cross 3 years ago. The 7D had 19 cross points 4 years ago. The current Rebel T5i has 9 cross points with a center f/2.8 diagonal cross. If Canon were trying to entice 'Rebel' shooters to full-frame, why not offer them at least the AF system that has been available on Rebels for several years? Why go to all the trouble to dumb it down?

Like you described, Rebel still trails behind xxD and 7d when it comes to AF which makes sense. However let's not forget that it isn't until recently the latest rebel finally receiving all crosstype points. Rebel owners from previous gen or two will see 6D's AF system no worse than what they've been so accustomed to. Canon also probably only make them all crosstype due to the pressure from Nikon which seems to offer more bang for buck in their respective offering.

Rebel IS the consumer line. And as I mentioned before, the most typical and rookie mistake is noise performance. Along with sharpness, they are easily the most desirable attributes to consumer aka Rebel owners. AF system, ergonomics, build quality etc are often overlooked in the rebel owner's mind.

Therefore the ff sensor, high iso performance and most importantly the bargain price lately triggers a lot of rebel owners looking to upgrade to the 6D.

Well you might be right, I'm not sure....but it really irks me that it has worse AF than a Rebel.

I really want to type more, but it's getting late here in Sydney and typing on iPad is a pain

pwm2 wrote in post #16420379
I don't buy that they aimed the 6D for Rebel users.

But they did one very strange thing, in regards to 5D2 owners.

A 5D2 owner who makes his income from photography shouldn't need to think long to get a 5D3 - A few extra sold images covers the price difference compared to the 6D. And the 5D3 is a "safer" choice.

But a very large number of 5D2 are hobbyists. Lots of them will not take the cost of a 5D3. The 6D would have been like a fly paper to all those 5D2 owners if it had come with 7D-class AF. Then it would have covered both IQ and AF in a good way, with Wi-Fi as a bonus. I think Canon's decision will scare away many customers. A big migration 5D2 -> 6D, followed by 5D -> 5D2, xxD -> 5D, xxD -> 5D2 will become a much smaller migration.

Well said. I'd already have 6D if it weren't for the AF system. I can't possibly be the only one.

pwm2 wrote in post #16420379
I don't buy that they aimed the 6D for Rebel users.

well maybe that wasn't Canon's original intention. But that's what's been happening as it currently stands.

Like someone has mentioned before, this could all be parts of Canon's master plan as they force people who wants no compromise to shell out more for the 5D3 by dumbing the AF system down significantly on the 6D....

kin2son wrote in post #16419960
No, not really.

6D might not have the banding issue as much as the 5D2, but in your situation it sounds like you are lifting the shadows and unfortunately shadow lifting isn't Canon sensor's strong point, and 6D will have negligible difference compared to your 5D2.

I regularly push shadows with both curves and "fill light" in adobe raw with no problem. How long did you own the 6D and how often did you have problems pushing shadows?

Nick3434 wrote in post #16420338
ummm, I most definitly plan on using my sigma 1.4 and sigma 100-300f4

Gabe already proved that should be quite fine. I shoot surfing for fun, not enough to justify a crazy telephoto, but I scored a last model year sigma 100-300 for $700 new and I jumped on it. That and my sweet Pentax Super takumar are the only lenses I have that will cross over, which is good because I will need the manual focus lens to overcome the 6D inability to lock focus

Actually the one thing stopping me from buying a 6d today is the lack of and seemingly no answer soon to the dark sides 14-24. I have also thought about switching systems for my FF kit just for that, and still may but I just hate the ergonomics of their cameras and not sharing some lenses. I am really hopeful sigma is close to dropping a bomb on this range like they did with their crop lens. I love what they have cooking lately and despite all the complaints my lens collection is basically sigma ex and I think they are underrated.

the camera being crippled with a reverse engineered focus system of an off brand lens is akin 2 the camera being crippled with wimpy single axis focus points.

bobbyz wrote in post #16419612
So I pulled my 6d and 35L and did some quick tests. Center is very good no question but top most and the left to it plain suck IMHO. Here is my test subject.
...
#3 ISO1600, f1.4, 1/250, Trying to focus on the edge (canon red bar), Top most point yes as vertical sensitive. Left to top most, forget it.

looks like you don't have the focus point on the canon box, see attached.

i have never had a problem with focus hunting in ai servo on the outer points. Your comment when someone else suggested your settings might need to be changed was along the lines of "I'm not new to this" but I'd suggest you give it a shot.

Exactly. Rebel users already had a great upgrade: the 7D. This was supposed to be a modernized 5DII, enticing that crowd, or those considering it, to buy a new camera. It is selling (poorly?) to Rebel users who could afford this upgrade to full-frame. The marketing term for completely missing your target audience: FAILURE.

As previously stated, in its own right, the 6D may be a fine camera. What it is NOT is an upgrade to a the 5DII. Notice Canon still sells refurbed 5Dii for more than the refurbed 6D. Why? People who know what they are buying will pay for the 5Dii. Discounting all the bells and whistles of the 6D, the 5Dii is still a better camera, unless you shoot JPG at 25600. I am waiting to see if the 6Dii has a better AF system. Or I may just give in and get a 70D.