LostArk Senior Member 418 posts Likes: 15 Joined Apr 2012 More info | Nov 11, 2013 19:10 | #76 lens pirate wrote in post #16443631  Oh really? Then please describe what red looks like to me. I don't have to describe what red looks like to you to know that your experience of red is the same as mine, because we have the same physiology. A deaf person doesn't have to describe what two identical horns sound like to know they sound the same, because both horns have the same physical structure, and the laws of physics are a constant.
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Wilt Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]  More info | Nov 11, 2013 19:11 | #77 OK kids, time to lay off 'red'. You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.php
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xarqi Cream of the Crop  10,435 posts Likes: 2 Joined Oct 2005 Location: Aotearoa/New Zealand More info | Nov 11, 2013 19:12 | #78 guitarjeff wrote in post #16443613 I was wrong for saying it is only blur due to dof, and I have no problem with that as long as it is based on something real that is demonstrable. And those who were saying it is subjective and is "the quality" and such things as that were wrong too. Perhaps you could apply your demonstrable dictionary skills to the word "quality" too. I suspect that you have interpreted this narrowly in the sense of the value of some attribute along a continuum: good to bad; ugly to beautiful; etc. Therein may lie much of the contention in this thread. I, and I believe others, have used the word "quality" in the sense of an attribute or character of something, in this case, blur, and also in this case, a subjective quality, that is, one that while it cannot necessarily be quantified, nor need different observers agree upon its nature, is nevertheless meaningful and deserving of a term to encompass it; hence, the subjective, qualitative character or photographic blur is known as "bokeh".
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guitarjeff Senior Member 674 posts Likes: 10 Joined Feb 2012 More info | See Lostarks post on color, you are wrong about it. Temperature can also be said to not exist outside of the mind. Touch a ice cube or the ember of slow fire. The difference in the energy states between them has no intrinsic sensation. We know what temperature will cause harm to human skin, or cause water to boil. That is NOT subjective. You continue to try and substitute subjectivity for measurable reality that exist for all. Its just the firing of nerve cells sending signals to the mind that then gets interpreted as temperature. We can measure how much energy is required for healthy nerve cells to send signals to the mind. That is NOT subjective. Energy does exist. But the word "energy" fails terribly to describe how we experience its effects on us. How we experience it has nothing to do with whether it can be measured in the outside world. How you experience your burning skin is subjective, that it IS BURNING is NOT. Now that absurd false premise you left floating in the bowl that things that only exist on the mind are fairly tails and can be dismissed as meaningless is just such a huge disconnect with reality that it is hard to address. Let's see. have you not hear of LOVE Hatred racism jealousy greed pride Everyone of the things in your list are caused by the chemical, human brain. When someone is in love we can measure a hightened blood pressure and things such as that. In other words, without the reality of our human bodies, the things in your list are MEANINGLESS and wouldn't exist. Tell me what love is without human, PHYSICAL nature? If humans never existed, other beings could still explain what hydrogen is, how the atoms work. hydrogen is real beyond just human experience. Love (and all the other things on the list) are subjective value judgements and feelings BASED on the chemical workings of our bodies. The existence of these things can all be revealed to be part of human evolution, they exist because they help humanity survive. They are still part of human, chemical nature. The words themselves mean NOTHING apart from our human nature. Where do those things exist but in the mind? Are they real?
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guitarjeff Senior Member 674 posts Likes: 10 Joined Feb 2012 More info | xarqi;I, and I believe others, have used the word "quality" in the sense of an attribute or character of something, What is the something, is it definable from one to another? The words were bokeh is "the quality" as if quality is an actual thing in itself, not needing any description. Then you said it is the ASSESSMENT, or VALUE, but they can't tell us any parameters to define any of those things. in this case, blur, and also in this case, a subjective quality, There is no such thing as a subjective quality. A quality is a describable aspect of something, a description. If something is subjective, it means that it ONLY exist in that exact way to that exact mind, and everyone else can also make up their own Subjective quality, and finally none of it will mean squat because none of it is based on reality. In other words, a subjective quality is MEANINGLESS, it means nothing because everyone can just dream up what they want that subjective quality to be. that is, one that while it cannot necessarily be quantified, nor need different observers agree upon its nature, is nevertheless meaningful and deserving of a term to encompass it; hence, the subjective, qualitative character or photographic blur is known as "bokeh".
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guitarjeff Senior Member 674 posts Likes: 10 Joined Feb 2012 More info | one that while it cannot necessarily be quantified, nor need different observers agree upon its nature , is nevertheless meaningful and deserving of a term to encompass it If it deserves a term, then tell me what parameters to look for so that I will always know when to use that term. ; hence, the subjective, qualitative character or photographic blur is known as "bokeh". There is no subjective, qualitative character. That is a contradictory sentence. Qualitative means a description of an aspect. It means definable as an aspect.
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guitarjeff Senior Member 674 posts Likes: 10 Joined Feb 2012 More info | Q: What is qualitative observations?
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xarqi Cream of the Crop 10,435 posts Likes: 2 Joined Oct 2005 Location: Aotearoa/New Zealand More info | Nov 11, 2013 20:37 | #83 guitarjeff wrote in post #16443743 There is no such thing as a subjective quality. Sorry, I can no longer even pretend to take you seriously.
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guitarjeff Senior Member 674 posts Likes: 10 Joined Feb 2012 More info | Nov 11, 2013 20:47 | #84 xarqi wrote in post #16443895 Sorry, I can no longer even pretend to take you seriously. And you also disagree with Wilt and his reasonable explanation?
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Nov 11, 2013 22:07 | #85 Whats bokeh? 5DIII, 24L f/1.4 II, 70-200L f/2.8 IS II,
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idsurfer Cream of the Crop  More info | Nov 11, 2013 22:12 | #86 Holy Moly, I casually clicked into this thread, read the first couple posts and immediately thought of you Jeff. And here you are!! I had to leave a "bokeh" thread a while back cause I just couldn't take it! Cory
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Wilt Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1] More info | Nov 11, 2013 22:14 | #87 What's brokeh?...all this bickering "Certs is a breath mint...NO, it's a candy mint'...No, define 'candy'!...It's sweet!...There is no thing as sweet, it is merely our brains perception of the electrical signals from one part of the tongue.." endless arguing that adds little to the topic! You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.php
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Nov 11, 2013 22:18 | #88 This thread makes me think of this.  5DIII, 24L f/1.4 II, 70-200L f/2.8 IS II,
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Wilt Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1] More info | Nov 11, 2013 22:36 | #89 kevinstinks wrote in post #16444166 This thread makes me think of this. [GIFS ARE NOT RENDERED IN QUOTES] the Argentine Tango?! You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support https://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.php
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EverydayGetaway Cream of the Crop  More info | Nov 11, 2013 22:49 | #90 Guys...  Woah!  Fuji X-T3 // Fuji X-Pro2 (Full Spectrum) // Fuji X-H1 // Fuji X-T1
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