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Thread started 14 Nov 2013 (Thursday) 14:08
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E-K
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Nov 22, 2013 09:23 |  #16

DigitalDon wrote in post #16471713 (external link)
The focus or sharpeness is between the two white ducks at the bottom of the photo, maybe the duck on the left moved some when I took the picture.

The ducks look like they are in two different focal planes. The left one is closer to you so I would say it was more a result of the DOF.

DigitalDon wrote in post #16471731 (external link)
So when shooting in RAW, a Picture Style set to add + 7 sharpen will not add that Sharpening to the RAW file?

In Canon's DPP it will use it as a hint to preset the sharpening slider. For other non-Canon apps, it's unlikely that they would use it.

e-k




  
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Nov 22, 2013 10:05 |  #17

E-K wrote in post #16471753 (external link)
The ducks look like they are in two different focal planes. The left one is closer to you so I would say it was more a result of the DOF.

In Canon's DPP it will use it as a hint to preset the sharpening slider. For other non-Canon apps, it's unlikely that they would use it.

e-k

Thanks E-K
I think I need to move along and start learning, lighting, composition and other aspects of photography and except the fact that as far as focusing and sharpness is concerned this is as good as it is going to get with a Canon T3i and kit lenses. I have been stuck in the focus and sharpening world to long and it is time to move to something else.

I will try using one of the picture styles with added sharpening and check it out using DPP.

I really appreciate all you guys help
Don



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tonylong
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Nov 23, 2013 07:30 |  #18

Don, read this:

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=414088


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DigitalDon
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Nov 23, 2013 13:06 |  #19

Thank you Tonylong

That is what I needed, I can't say I fully understand everything there is to know about Shutter Speeds, ISO and Aperture but after reading the link you posted, it made more sense on how to use them together.

Now if I can wrap my mind around the Focal Length part and figure how it applies to photography, all I can make of it is to get the focal lenght equivalent of a 35mm sensor from my 1.6 sensor is to multiply say my 1.6 x 50 mm lens = 80, it will look like what I would see with 80mm lens on a 35mm sensor camera. Then the next thing that comes to mind is if I want to set my 18-55mm lens to a 40mm lens to equal the 35mm sensor then I would have to multiply 25x1.6 =40 with this I would turn the ring to 25mm to get the equivalent of a 40mm full frame 35mm sensor, is this right or as usual am I some where in outer space ranting and raving.
Thanks again for your help
Don



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DunnoWhen
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Nov 23, 2013 13:12 |  #20

DigitalDon wrote in post #16474504 (external link)
Now if I can wrap my mind around the Focal Length part and figure how it applies to photography, all I can make of it is to get the focal lenght equivalent of a 35mm sensor from my 1.6 sensor is to multiply say my 1.6 x 50 mm lens = 80, it will look like what I would see with 80mm lens on a 35mm sensor camera. Then the next thing that comes to mind is if I want to set my 18-55mm lens to a 40mm lens to equal the 35mm sensor then I would have to multiply 25x1.6 =40 with this I would turn the ring to 25mm to get the equivalent of a 40mm full frame 35mm sensor, is this right or as usual am I some where in outer space ranting and raving.
Thanks again for your help
Don

Unless you are shooting both FF and crop, just forget about this conversion/crop multiplication nonsense. All you need to worry about is how a given lens works on your camera.IE, Just learn what constitutes a wide angle, normal or telephoto focal lengths for your camera and you'll be a happy man. :-)

It's interesting from technical point of view but, other than that, just plain confusion causing.


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DigitalDon
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Nov 23, 2013 13:19 |  #21

DunnoWhen wrote in post #16474517 (external link)
Unless you are shooting both FF and crop, just forget about this conversion/crop multiplication nonsense. All you need to worry about is how a given lens works on your camera.

It's interesting from technical point of view but, other than that, just plain confusion causing.

Thanks DunnoWhen , that's a load off my mind to be able to let that go.

I think this will be what I may need to figure focal lengthhttp://www.cambridgein​colour.com/tutorials/c​amera-lenses.htm (external link)

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DunnoWhen
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Nov 23, 2013 14:11 |  #22

DigitalDon wrote in post #16474530 (external link)
Thanks DunnoWhen , that's a load off my mind to be able to let that go.

I think this will be what I may need to figure focal lengthhttp://www.cambridgein​colour.com/tutorials/c​amera-lenses.htm (external link)

At this time, you could even forget about that as well.

Just put a lens on the camera and see if you can frame the shot nicely.

No need to over think everything.

You might consider grabbing hold of a copy of Bryan Peterson book Understanding Exposure, in which he describes three basic types of shots "Story Telling", "Isolation" and "Who Cares".

"Story telling" means big depth of field (near to far) so shoot at f11 or greater.

"Isolation" means narrow depth of field so shoot from f1 to upto about f4.

"Who cares" where you have no depth of field to worry about (eg man standing against a wall) so shoot at a lens' sweet spot around f8.

That's basically it.

Ask any experienced photographer when he last got out a DOF calculator. He just follows the basic rules stated above.

So, for the moment, just put the camera in Av mode, select an aperture based on what you want based on the simple rules above and just shoot. :)


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Nov 23, 2013 15:37 |  #23

DigitalDon wrote in post #16474504 (external link)
Now if I can wrap my mind around the Focal Length part and figure how it applies to photography, all I can make of it is to get the focal lenght equivalent of a 35mm sensor from my 1.6 sensor is to multiply say my 1.6 x 50 mm lens = 80, it will look like what I would see with 80mm lens on a 35mm sensor camera. Then the next thing that comes to mind is if I want to set my 18-55mm lens to a 40mm lens to equal the 35mm sensor then I would have to multiply 25x1.6 =40 with this I would turn the ring to 25mm to get the equivalent of a 40mm full frame 35mm sensor, is this right or as usual am I some where in outer space ranting and raving.
Don

Too much thinking and analysis. Even that Field-of-View-for-FL-at-certain-distance calculator is rather overkill. After all, what precise distance is your subject?...most of us guess rather poorly, and AF lenses have very poor distance scales.
Most folks simply eventually learn what 'normal lens' does for them on their camera, with a 'practiced eye', and then think about relative FL effects:

Ultra Wide Angle = about 0.4 * 'normal'
Very Wide Angle = about 0.5 * 'normal'
Moderate Wide Angle = about 0.7 * 'normal'
Normal
Short telephoto = about 1.5 * 'normal'
Portrait telephoto = about 1.8 * 'normal' to about 2.0 * 'normal'
Medium telephoto = about 2.5 * 'normal'
Long telephoto = about 4 * 'normal'
Super telephoto = about 6 * 'normal'

On your APS-C camera, 'normal' is about 30-32mm.
Then you know that 2* 'normal' sees half of the angle of the normal
and 0.5x 'normal' sees double the angle of the normal, etc.


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Nov 23, 2013 21:55 |  #24

A lot of us just follow a "rule of thumb", kind of like the Peterson advice above. For some things, a shallow depth-of-field is good, but I don't typically shoot with my lens "wide open", I just pick an aperture that will "work" for the scene. For some things you want to stop down, you just have to know your camera/lens combo and what will "work", especially if you need to stop way down, slowing the shutter speed way down. A tripod comes in handy with that type of shooting!


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sandpiper
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Nov 24, 2013 09:14 |  #25

DigitalDon wrote in post #16474530 (external link)
I think this will be what I may need to figure focal lengthhttp://www.cambridgein​colour.com/tutorials/c​amera-lenses.htm (external link)

I agree with the others, you seem to be getting too hung up on numbers and technicalities that are of little or no use in the field. OK, that has told you that to fill the frame with a 5.6ft subject, from 10 feet away, you need a focal length of around 40mm. Now, how do you intend to actually make use of that? Your lenses are all zooms, so you could estimate 10 feet and simply zoom in to frame your subject, you don't need to know that the zoom will be at 40mm or thereabouts.

Photography is a subjective process, you are better off concentrating on the image and not the numbers in tables telling you what to do, where to stand and which lens to use.

It is important to keep in mind that distance from the subject controls perspective, and the relationship between the different elements in the scene. The best way of shooting (in my opinion) is to move around and find the best position to shoot from, which frames the subject well and has a good balance with other elements, in short find your picture first. Then set a focal length that frames the scene as you want to show it (or wider if necessary, you can crop later).

You can shoot your 5.6ft subject from 10 feet with a 40mm lens, or from 100 feet with a 400mm lens (or any distance in between, with a relative focal length) and still have them filling the frame the same size. However, the other elements of the scene will have altered, perhaps dramatically. Let's say there is a mountain in the far distance, at 40mm it may be quite small in the scene and hardly noticeable. Moving back 90 feet will make no significant difference in the distance to the mountains several miles away, so they will be hugely increased in size with a 400mm lens, yet that 90 feet is a massive difference in distance to the subject, so they stay the same size in the frame even with the much longer length.

So, you can choose between a small mountain range in the distance, or much larger mountains making a great backdrop, whilst keeping the subject the same size, simply by choosing your distance and focal length. This is something that table will not help you with, you need to move back from your subject and see how things change at different distances (the effect is natural, your eyes see the same way as the lens, you just have to concentrate on the subject and the background) and find the best place, then set your focal length for that image.

It can seem daunting at first, all the things to consider, but it falls quickly into place and you soon get a feel for finding the right place, the right perspective and composition, and the right aperture to shoot at to give the depth of field you want, whether that be shallow or deep. The key thing is to go out and take pictures, that is how you develop that "feel" for what you are doing.

You can sit at a computer and play with charts and tables but ultimately they are of minimal use, I never used them and don't have any use for them other than when answering questions in forums when I want to tell somebody why they don't have sharpness where they want it and I want to be able to say "you only have 1.2 inches of DOF" at that aperture, or whatever. In the field I have no use for the numbers, I work with feel and experience for what aperture will work best, I got that from taking pictures and not reading charts.

It can be useful to look at your exif if you feel a shot hasn't worked, and analyze why it hasn't worked, wrong aperture or shutter speed perhaps. Then next time you are in a similar situation you can think "last time I took a similar shot I used f/4 and didn't have enough DOF, so I'll stop down to a smaller aperture and try that". Shooting with digital is free (almost) so play aroound with the settings, find a scene and shoot it at different apertures, different distances and focal lengths, different shutter speeds with moving subjects, etc. Find out what works for you, what images you like, or don't like, and view the settings you used in the exif to get that result.




  
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DigitalDon
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Nov 24, 2013 09:22 as a reply to  @ tonylong's post |  #26

Thanks to all of you for your help, yep, thats me always over thinking everything I do.
All that I wrote about in this thread was over thinking that maybe I have to learn all this before I'm able to take better pictures, But with all the help I am getting here, I see if I don't have ISO, Aperture and SS in sync with each other AND find the sweet spot of my lens then my pictures are not going to be as good as they could be. I was thinking that the sweet spot was around 5.6-6.3, looking back at my pictures I didn't stray far from those settings and if I did it was more towards 4 -4.5, very few picture that I went back and looked at were around f8 to f22 ,most all the time I wanted some shallow DOF and stayed around 5.6 I think it is time to go with higher f numbers and see what happens, Ummm maybe sharper pictures.
I am going to get Bryan Peterson book Understanding Exposure because I need all the help I can get.
Thanks again to all of you for the great info you provided
Don



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DigitalDon
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Nov 24, 2013 09:35 |  #27

sandpiper wrote in post #16476188 (external link)
I agree with the others, you seem to be getting too hung up on numbers and technicalities that are of little or no use in the field. OK, that has told you that to fill the frame with a 5.6ft subject, from 10 feet away, you need a focal length of around 40mm. Now, how do you intend to actually make use of that? Your lenses are all zooms, so you could estimate 10 feet and simply zoom in to frame your subject, you don't need to know that the zoom will be at 40mm or thereabouts.

Photography is a subjective process, you are better off concentrating on the image and not the numbers in tables telling you what to do, where to stand and which lens to use.

It is important to keep in mind that distance from the subject controls perspective, and the relationship between the different elements in the scene. The best way of shooting (in my opinion) is to move around and find the best position to shoot from, which frames the subject well and has a good balance with other elements, in short find your picture first. Then set a focal length that frames the scene as you want to show it (or wider if necessary, you can crop later).

You can shoot your 5.6ft subject from 10 feet with a 40mm lens, or from 100 feet with a 400mm lens (or any distance in between, with a relative focal length) and still have them filling the frame the same size. However, the other elements of the scene will have altered, perhaps dramatically. Let's say there is a mountain in the far distance, at 40mm it may be quite small in the scene and hardly noticeable. Moving back 90 feet will make no significant difference in the distance to the mountains several miles away, so they will be hugely increased in size with a 400mm lens, yet that 90 feet is a massive difference in distance to the subject, so they stay the same size in the frame even with the much longer length.

So, you can choose between a small mountain range in the distance, or much larger mountains making a great backdrop, whilst keeping the subject the same size, simply by choosing your distance and focal length. This is something that table will not help you with, you need to move back from your subject and see how things change at different distances (the effect is natural, your eyes see the same way as the lens, you just have to concentrate on the subject and the background) and find the best place, then set your focal length for that image.

It can seem daunting at first, all the things to consider, but it falls quickly into place and you soon get a feel for finding the right place, the right perspective and composition, and the right aperture to shoot at to give the depth of field you want, whether that be shallow or deep. The key thing is to go out and take pictures, that is how you develop that "feel" for what you are doing.

You can sit at a computer and play with charts and tables but ultimately they are of minimal use, I never used them and don't have any use for them other than when answering questions in forums when I want to tell somebody why they don't have sharpness where they want it and I want to be able to say "you only have 1.2 inches of DOF" at that aperture, or whatever. In the field I have no use for the numbers, I work with feel and experience for what aperture will work best, I got that from taking pictures and not reading charts.

It can be useful to look at your exif if you feel a shot hasn't worked, and analyze why it hasn't worked, wrong aperture or shutter speed perhaps. Then next time you are in a similar situation you can think "last time I took a similar shot I used f/4 and didn't have enough DOF, so I'll stop down to a smaller aperture and try that". Shooting with digital is free (almost) so play aroound with the settings, find a scene and shoot it at different apertures, different distances and focal lengths, different shutter speeds with moving subjects, etc. Find out what works for you, what images you like, or don't like, and view the settings you used in the exif to get that result.

Hello Sandpiper
I was offline while I was typing the reply and went back online and posted it, So I didn't see your post until I went back online and posted my reply.
That is some great info, Thank you.



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