Can prospective clients really differentiate between quality?

Hogloff wrote in post #16477393
Need to be both in order to be successful. There are many great photographers, but would starve if they actually had to sell their work to feed themselves.

No you don't at all. There are heaps of crap photographers out there (many "accredited") doing well because they sell and an experience which is great even though the product is naff. In the domestic market people buy an experience as much as they do the photographs and in many cases more so.

You need your work to sell to be financially successful that can come three ways.

1) Crap photographer but great sales person. The salesman in the photographer sells the experience.

2) Exceptional photographer crap salesman but the work is good enough to sell itself.

3) Good photographer and good salesman.

1 and 3 are the most common. 1 is the scenario the industry loves to hate since it "degrades the profession".

2 is more rare since most photographer's work these days in the domestic market has very little uniqueness to it. It doesn't matter if you are just good when there are countless other people at the same standard in a saturation of supply.

Define "great" photographers. Being good at photography and making a living from it don't necessarily go hand in hand.

"Perceived value" is the main thing photographers should focus on if they want to be financially successful. The only value that counts in the eye of the public is that one. The perceived value and being able to maintain it will make or break any photography business. What photographers think they are worth is irrelevant.

All the diatribes on convincing the public of quality, educating the uninformed etc are just photographers throwing their toys out of the pram as their perceived value isn't what they want it to be. Getting their head around the fact their work is WORTH LESS than they want/need it to be or in many cases that their work in fact is WORTHLESS period.

As it's been said, some can tell a difference some can't. Art is subjective. What I like may not be what you like. Naturally, we tend to agree that certain ratios, proportions, and "fundamentals" all make a good picture. But there's more to it than that, there's location, variations in editing, and overall style that is reflected in our work that is unique to each of us. Customers choose on all of these things.

In addition customers choose based on you.

People buy experiences. How are they treated when they walk in the door. What does it look like, smell like, sound like, etc.

In addition, I have spent a lot of $ learning internet marketing for my other business.
They say 1 thing on your site can turn someone off from the entire thing.
To give you an example I had a newborn shoot coming up. Military family. She sent me some example photos that she liked and one included the baby laying on a flag, done by another professional photographer. It was indeed an excellent picture. I showed it to my husband, who went ballistic. (former military). He did not find it acceptable to place a baby on a flag. While I certainly don't intend to turn this into a discussion on "is that acceptable" quite frankly this illustrates that had my husband seen that on a photographers website, while entertaining choices of photographer, he would not choose that photographer based on that photo alone. No matter how good the person was, or how "bad" the other choices were. That picture turned him off and he didn't find it acceptable. Period.

It could be something in your photos that resonates with people. It could also be that 1 thing that turns them off for good. Have you heard the discussions about racy senior photos? Putting some excellent yet too racy photos of HS seniors could easily turn off a conservative counterpart as an example.

Point in case, there is a whole lot that goes in to people's choices other than just "is this person technically better".

Know why I started using Millers instead of bay photo when I got started? I hated the colors on bay photos website. Stupid, I'll even acknowledge it to myself. But these are the things that play into personal bias when making buying decisions. The simple colors on your site, fonts, layout, etc can all equally determine if someone buys or not.

npompei wrote in post #16471463
My work is at a point now where I am not selling my work anymore, I am selling myself. It's that simple. Clients love me and are thrilled after meeting with me and having me around on their wedding day. They love me before they even see my pictures. They could give to ****s if I shoot with this or that. They have no clue.

This is a very good point. In the last month I've gotten four five star reviews from people before delivering their pictures.

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16477417
No you don't at all. There are heaps of crap photographers out there (many "accredited") doing well because they sell and an experience which is great even though the product is naff. In the domestic market people buy an experience as much as they do the photographs and in many cases more so.

You need your work to sell to be financially successful that can come three ways.

1) Crap photographer but great sales person. The salesman in the photographer sells the experience.

2) Exceptional photographer crap salesman but the work is good enough to sell itself.

3) Good photographer and good salesman.

1 and 3 are the most common. 1 is the scenario the industry loves to hate since it "degrades the profession".

2 is more rare since most photographer's work these days in the domestic market has very little uniqueness to it. It doesn't matter if you are just good when there are countless other people at the same standard in a saturation of supply.

Define "great" photographers. Being good at photography and making a living from it don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Well said Peter.

drewl wrote in post #16472254
how how most people determine if a photo is good:

not blurry.
person A is in it.

I like this statement. Somehow I can relate.

Its up to you and how you attract potential clients that will be a factor in how they perceive quality. I have had people drive 2 hour round trips just to do a photoshoot with me and people who refuse free shoots and rather pay for what I do because they like what I offer that much more. If you care about quality and thats something you pride yourself in as being different than the rest, your images must speak for that and market yourself as such.

It certainly seems at times like they can't. I saw a thread on a car forum a few weeks ago that drove me nuts. Someone posted several shots from a photo shoot they had. The pics were some of the worst HDR that I have ever seen. Yet there were two pages of people saying how good the shots were. Hopefully they were just being polite but I got the feeling that they meant it.

autoidiodyssey wrote in post #16491424
It certainly seems at times like they can't. I saw a thread on a car forum a few weeks ago that drove me nuts. Someone posted several shots from a photo shoot they had. The pics were some of the worst HDR that I have ever seen. Yet there were two pages of people saying how good the shots were. Hopefully they were just being polite but I got the feeling that they meant it.

One man's cave is another man's castle. If the client is happy with the results why should anything else matter?

autoidiodyssey wrote in post #16491424
It certainly seems at times like they can't. I saw a thread on a car forum a few weeks ago that drove me nuts. Someone posted several shots from a photo shoot they had. The pics were some of the worst HDR that I have ever seen. Yet there were two pages of people saying how good the shots were. Hopefully they were just being polite but I got the feeling that they meant it.

That's the beauty of photography...everyone has their opinions on what is great and what is not. The bottom line...it's the customer's opinion that matters...not yours.

Hogloff wrote in post #16491464
That's the beauty of photography...everyone has their opinions on what is great and what is not. The bottom line...it's the customer's opinion that matters...not yours.

Indeed. As a photographer one's own opinion about the quality/value of the work one sells is largely not a factor... and what other photographers think about it is completely irrelevant.

Photographers as a species are often too self absorbed with preciousness to realise that.

Save worrying about what other photographers think for when one is entering competitions/awards.

memoriesoftomorrow wrote in post #16473356
If you have to convince someone of the value you have placed on your own work you are doing something wrong.... or you have overvalued your work.

You may not have to convince them, but often you will have to educate them.

A friend of mine shoots weddings. He is at the very high end of wedding photographers in his market. He has a gorgeous, spacious studio/office. When couples call to inquire about his services, prices, etc, he schedules an appointment in which they come to meet him at his studio. On the walls of his studio are many excellent, LARGE prints, in high-end custom wood frames. Many of these prints are in the 30" by 40" range. The size of his studio allows him to display quite a number of these large framed prints in a way that does not make the walls look over-crowded.

When speaking with the couple, he shows them the work he has produced, and explains that only images of the finest quality can be made to look so good at such large sizes. The prospective customers are quite impressed, and many decide that they need to significantly increase the amount of money they had planned to spend for their wedding photography.

Many of these people might not have been able to tell any difference in quality before meeting with this guy & his team. But after speaking with him, they can tell the difference. The moral of the story is that it is up to you to educate your market, and turn them into people who both notice and appreciate quality work.

Show them a level of work they didn't even know existed, and them make them want it so much that they increase their budgets because they just have to have it. To do this one must be a very good photographer and a very good salesperson.

Hogloff wrote in post #16477393
Need to be both in order to be seccessful. There are many great photographers, but would starve if they actually had to sell their work to feed themselves.

Interesting thread. I am not a professional photographer(just do some side stuff), but I do have a successful very quality oriented high end marble company and can offer some valuable insight. The fact of the matter is that we do quality work other professionals appreciate and think is great, but I sell to clients that wouldn't know the difference in many cases. Fortunately at this point, if we cross paths, in the first place, they are doing something nice and higher budget and the substance of work is assumed and assumed to be paid for, But groundwork is needed to reach that point.

Hogloff is spot on here. You need to keep your works standards high despite the fact it may/will go unnoticed or unappreciated, and SELL based on good old fashioned sales techniques like relating to your client, listening to their needs and assuring them you are the right company for their job, and often that means little technical mumbo jumbo as that is your job to know those details and they want to hire a person who presumably knows how to make it right so they shouldn't need to worry or think about it.

One thing I have learned in business is that crappy companies that can sell will always be more successful than great companies that cannot. The goal is to be both, a great salesman with an end product that other professionals have to acknowledge IF your work is ever scrutinized. That is the complete package and I assume photography is no different than other skilled jobs where the craftsman often struggle to be successful salesmen as well.

As for sales, my only advice is read the person in front of you and be what they are looking for, let your enthusiasm for your work radiate to evoke confidence(easy for craftsman) without overdoing it (harder) and NEVER compare your work to others or competition. Be all about you, and what you can do for them. Also, price is always the first thing brought up, but rarely the determining factor. It is a joke how often someone buys what they want costing thousands more than what they said they would spend. It is up to you to make them want you, and confidence of the client in you is the best way to make that happen. If they know you will do a great job, more often than not they will pay more for that feeling of a guaranteed thing as custom work whether marble or pictures, is never the same experience or product between 2 different companies. People that think pictures are the same and marble is the same and their experience will be the same are a client base you don't want, but it is your job as a salesman to make them determine if that is how they REALLY feel, as most assume they feel that to start but in fact do not with some reflection.

Some can tell, some can't, but very few care about the difference between "decent", "good" and "great" photographs. If the people are recognizable and the shots are halfway decent (that being a subjective term, of course), that's all most of them require. Once a shot is "good enough" for their standards whatever those standards are are, you're going to have a difficult time getting them to pay more for an extra increment of quality.

I think many commercial clients care. Most other visual professionals know(art directors, designers, account managers, etc) and care about quality. Their jobs and reputations depend on quality in many cases. And they know. And all of this is not as suggestive as many think.
http://char.txa.cornel​l.edu/language/introla​n.htm

What you like and dislike is suggestive. What is good or not is not as suggestive as many think.

Now the money question, if you really care about quality and actually yourself "know" what that means, how do you get to those clients that know and care?