Canon 50's Soft Focus

Let me preface by saying I have read the thread about what to post when having focus issues but I'd like to explain the situation a bit because it seems that nothing is consistent and I'm wondering if anyone else has had a problem like this.

We mostly shoot weddings.

My wife has been shooting Nikon for 10+ years. We got married early this year and as a video person, we decided that it might be best if she comes to the Canon side of things. So we purchased two 5D Mark III's and a 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 16-35mm 2.8 II, and most recently the 24-70mm 2.8 II and a 50mm 1.8.

Since she first started using the Mark III, she has complained that both my images and her images just aren't as sharp as her Nikon images in general. The 16-35 specifically was the most disappointing, but now it seems both the 50mm's just never quite give consistent results in regards to focus. She typically shoots in ONE SHOT, between 2.0 and 2.8 because she likes a shallow depth of field. I can understand a bit of missed focus in dark environments where people are moving constantly, but some of the most frustrating for her (times when she put the Canon down and went back to her Nikon D700) have been the easiest. Times like portrait sessions when the light is perfect, she puts the focus marker on the subject and half presses the button, takes the frame, and then looks at it only find the focus point is on their shoulder instead of their face. This isn't consistent though. We have sent in the 16-35 and 50 1.4 and both were serviced under warranty by Canon and sent back. At first it seems they were fixed but now the inconsistency comes right back. My wife wants to sell all of our Canon gear and go buy Nikon because she has that consistency with that equipment and has for 10 years. I only recently started photography (I was a Canon videographer before) so it's hard for me to help.

I use back button focus, she uses shutter focus and always has. I find that sometimes I put the square on my subject, press the back button, take the frame in ideal situations and check it and its just out of focus. Usually to fix this I will focus on something very close and then re-focus on my subject and it usually works, but we are talking about 2 different cameras, so I don't think its the cameras. Also, the 70-200 and 24-70 II are both tack sharp almost 100% of the time.

Is there something we are missing? If the subject is 30 ft. away is there a minimum aperture we should use? Obviously it would be nice if I could shoot 24mm on the 16-35 at +5.6 and get a shot thats sharp but sometimes the lens just doesn't seem to want to cooperate.

Yesterday I tried to show her AI FOCUS and in my demonstration I had her walk in front of me. I put the focus marker on her and held the back button as she walked. Every frame was out of focus. I thought the results would be helpful in fixing the problem but only proved her point further. Any tips would be very grateful.

Jonathan Holt
http://www.photojennet​te.com

A couple of clarifications, please.
Is the 50 the 1.4 or 1.8; you mention both?
You are using a single AF point, and not allowing the camera to chose what it thinks should be the subject?

And one suggestion - don't spend too much time with AI Focus mode; it's somewhat haphazard.

Further thoughts:
Front, and back-focusing issues are not all that rare. Perhaps some controlled tests of focus accuracy with the suspect lens could be undertaken. I believe that the 5D3 has micro-focus adjustment capability on a per-lens basis, so that may be a solution, if that is indeed the issue.

Also, before long, someone is going to request some sample images showing the issue; hey - why not me! How about some sample images?

Well the Canon 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 are not lenses I'd trust if I absolutely needed to get the shot. I have the 1.4, it does OK most of the time, but I wouldn't trust it 100% (I should burst in Ai Servo). Actually I wouldn't trust it 90%, not something I'd use if I was being paid.

The 16-35 I've not heard about having AF issues, it should be good.

You say the 70-200 and 24-70 are great, so it's really only the above lenses, and out of those only the 16-35 surprises me.

As mentioned Al Focus is totally useless, at least on any Canon models I've tried.

AI FOCUS is terrible...never use it

As a 5D3 shooter myself, several things come to mind:

Although I've never owned either the 50mm 1.4 or 1.8, from what I've read, the 1.8 is a less than stellar sharp, especially wide open. The 1.4 is markedly improved, and should be. But neither will give L lens IQ, especially when pixel peeping at 100% crop, etc. Few lenses are at their sharpest wide open. Perhaps the best lens I've ever owned for 'wide open' shots is the 135 f2L. The results are absolutely stunning using my 5D3.

Another question is did you MFA the lenses on each camera? Even though none of my lenses were more than + or - 5 (6Ls and 85 1.8), the before and after difference after MFA was noticable. That's especially true as the L zooms can be MFAd at both the wide and tele settings.

Also, absolutely do =N=O=T= use ONE-SHOT for anything that lives, moves, breathes, shakes, slithers, swims, crawls, or any other living organism!! That goes for AI-FOCUS as well! Even the 0.03 seconds between AF lock and shutter open is time for the subject to move. Absolutely, use AI-SERVO for living subjects. That way, whether the camera moves 0.001 inch or the subject does, the focus will track the subject and keep all in focus. A real lesson for me was watching all 3 parts of the Canon AF tutoring video on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=iAx86nblZ2g

Although I don't do weddings, most of my photography is indoor events at church...no flash. So I'm typically at ISO speeds of 3200 and faster to keep the shutter speeds in the 1/100 and faster...necessary to stop subject and my motion (on non-IS lenses). I try for 1/125 and will sometimes shoot at ISO 6400 if I have to...the noise at 6400 is still easily corrected in LR.

photojennette wrote in post #16473388
Let me preface by saying I have read the thread about what to post when having focus issues but I'd like to explain the situation a bit because it seems that nothing is consistent and I'm wondering if anyone else has had a problem like this.

We mostly shoot weddings.

My wife has been shooting Nikon for 10+ years. We got married early this year and as a video person, we decided that it might be best if she comes to the Canon side of things. So we purchased two 5D Mark III's and a 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 16-35mm 2.8 II, and most recently the 24-70mm 2.8 II and a 50mm 1.8.

Since she first started using the Mark III, she has complained that both my images and her images just aren't as sharp as her Nikon images in general. The 16-35 specifically was the most disappointing, but now it seems both the 50mm's just never quite give consistent results in regards to focus. She typically shoots in ONE SHOT, between 2.0 and 2.8 because she likes a shallow depth of field. I can understand a bit of missed focus in dark environments where people are moving constantly, but some of the most frustrating for her (times when she put the Canon down and went back to her Nikon D700) have been the easiest. Times like portrait sessions when the light is perfect, she puts the focus marker on the subject and half presses the button, takes the frame, and then looks at it only find the focus point is on their shoulder instead of their face. This isn't consistent though. We have sent in the 16-35 and 50 1.4 and both were serviced under warranty by Canon and sent back. At first it seems they were fixed but now the inconsistency comes right back. My wife wants to sell all of our Canon gear and go buy Nikon because she has that consistency with that equipment and has for 10 years. I only recently started photography (I was a Canon videographer before) so it's hard for me to help.

I use back button focus, she uses shutter focus and always has. I find that sometimes I put the square on my subject, press the back button, take the frame in ideal situations and check it and its just out of focus. Usually to fix this I will focus on something very close and then re-focus on my subject and it usually works, but we are talking about 2 different cameras, so I don't think its the cameras. Also, the 70-200 and 24-70 II are both tack sharp almost 100% of the time.

Is there something we are missing? If the subject is 30 ft. away is there a minimum aperture we should use? Obviously it would be nice if I could shoot 24mm on the 16-35 at +5.6 and get a shot thats sharp but sometimes the lens just doesn't seem to want to cooperate.

Yesterday I tried to show her AI FOCUS and in my demonstration I had her walk in front of me. I put the focus marker on her and held the back button as she walked. Every frame was out of focus. I thought the results would be helpful in fixing the problem but only proved her point further. Any tips would be very grateful.

Jonathan Holt
http://www.photojennet​te.com

like others have said - never use AI focus!
and the 50mm 1.8 is a $50 lens!
if you shoot professional weddings at least use a better lens, either the Canon L, Sigma 50, Canon 50mm 1.4, etc.

I'd test different lenses out to see if you can get the sharpness that the nikons can and then compare the pictures.
The 50 1.8 sounds like a dying animal when focusing.. I'd rent a 50mm 1.2, 85 1.2, and 70-200 ii ..

Hey and if you have to switch, you can get one of the best wide angle zooms of all time, the nikon 12-24

I wish canon would come out with an extremely sharp 50mm 1.4-2 is

I've owned both 50mm f/1.8 and currently own the 1.4. Both are not as consistent focusing as any of the L lenses available.

My recommendation is to sell both 50mm lenses you have and get the 50mm f/1.2 L. If your focus demands are high then you can do no better in the Canon line-up of 50mm lenses.

My experience with both 50/1.8 and 50/1.4 is that they are reliable in good light with good contrast to focus on. Both give up and suck hard core in low light. I've had situations that my 24-105L would nail focus in low light where the 50/1.4 would just hunt and hunt, or worse, take the shot and miss.

The main reason I have the much more expensive 50/1.2L is not for whatever small improvements it offers in optics. It is because the lens can focus in low light.

photojennette wrote in post #16473388
Times like portrait sessions when the light is perfect, she puts the focus marker on the subject and half presses the button, takes the frame, and then looks at it only find the focus point is on their shoulder instead of their face. This isn't consistent though.

Could you clarify this please?

Do you mean that the shoulder is in focus rather than the face, or literally as you wrote it, and you are looking at the lit focus point on the LCD or in DPP or other software which may show it?

All that you see when you are looking at the chosen focus point whilst viewing the image is the chosen point, it doesn't show over where was in focus as it cannot move in the display. If you use the centre focus point and recompose, the subject will move in the frame but the point will still show as dead centre. You can focus on something close up then recompose, so that the chosen point is over the distant background, the lit point on viewing the image will be over the very out of focus background, but the subject will still be in focus.

It sounds like your wife is focusing on the eyes, possibly with centre point, then dropping the camera to reframe and reduce the empty space above the head, as she is in one-shot that will not alter the focus from where it was locked, but the active point will now typically be over the shoulder, which is where you will see lit up on the display when you view the image. Again, that does not show where the camera focused, simply which point you chose to use and not where it was on the subject.

I fully agree with the others as regards AI focus, it is a poor system which is there for users who do not like to change settings and prefer to let the camera make all the decisions. Like most auto systems it is not as smart as the photographer and has no idea of what the camera is pointing at, or what it may do, so tends to be on the wrong setting a lot of the time. It is far better to choose which you want and set it yourself.

I presume that your wife is using a single chosen AF point? Again, letting the camera have options is not ideal and can lead to it picking the wrong point.

I would use AI Servo for such wide apertures, as the DOF is so shallow that focus recompose with one shot mode, plus any slight movements of photographer or subject, between locking focus and tripping the shutter can result in missed focus. When DOF is so shallow, it only takes the subject to lean slightly forwards or backwards and focus can miss. AI servo will correct for that, although you do need to keep the AF point on the eyes which (even with an outer AF point) can require a little cropping for framing purposes.

I looked at your website and you are clearly good photographers, so I would think that your wife is aware of the problems of shallow DOF etc., I suspect that the issue is simply being uncertain of Canons modes and maybe using the wrong one, where she understood the Nikons modes well.

I believe that Canon use a stronger AA filter than Nikon in some models, which does introduce a slight softness but that i8s easily corrected for at the sharpening stage in PP. If comparing shots SOOC then that may account for seeing some slight sharpness difference.

I use a 5D mkIII myself and find the AF system to be extremely accurate, even at wide apertures. I don't have the 50mm lenses, but use an 85mm at f/1.8 and a 300mm at f/2.8 a lot and rarely miss focus (and when I do it is my fault and not the cameras).

Holy smokes you guys are awesome. I can't believe I just found this community! Thank you all for the responses. In an effort to try and touch on each of the questions I'm going to just wrap it into a paragraph.

I am speaking of both the 50 1.4 and the 50 1.8. In regards to the 50 1.2, we certainly will be renting it for our next assignment to see the difference. We would have loved to have already purchased it but believe me, asking my wife who has been shooting Nikon for 12 years to cross over to Canon has certainly been a challenge, and dropping $1600 on one lens was something we could only do if she was certain that Canon was going to be ok for her / our business. She shoots 75% of the time with a 50mm so we should have rented the 50 1.2 right away but have simply been thinking we were the problem and to make things work, we when take the cheaper 50s to test them, they always seem to work. If I could find a single pattern in the problem I would certainly hone in on that issue but it seems so random.

I will certainly give up on AI Focus, again only was using it because of the lack of knowledge in the AF world. (In video we never have AF) For controlled portraits, ONE SHOT should work correct? For anything moving we will lean on AI SERVO. As for providing samples of the issue, I would just be posting photos that are slightly out of focus, so if you can imagine that, you know what I'm talking about. As for what I'm seeing in the camera, yes we are typically using "Single Point AF" We like to be able to move the point to our subject, and then focus and fire. I've tried the other modes but it usually pulls focus on whatever is closest within the focus area. So there are times when I frame, pull focus and hold the focus button, take the frame, then look at the image (I have it set to display the focus point with the red square) which is exactly where I had it, yet the spot is not tack sharp.

For Sandpiper:

Can you explain this comment without acronyms?
I believe that Canon use a stronger AA filter than Nikon in some models, which does introduce a slight softness but that i8s easily corrected for at the sharpening stage in PP. If comparing shots SOOC then that may account for seeing some slight sharpness difference.

Are you saying that we shouldn't use Single Point AF with this comment?
I presume that your wife is using a single chosen AF point? Again, letting the camera have options is not ideal and can lead to it picking the wrong point.

I would assume using Single Point AF is much better than Focus areas, etc? The comment makes it seem as though using Single gives the camera more options.

I am interested in getting better results from the 16-35L II as I realize the 50 1.4 and 50 1.8 are cheaper lenses so they may not provide the results we want, but the 16-35L is a $1500 lens and I want it to perform. Can someone give me a few ideas on how to nail down the problem? I have already sent it in and had it serviced by Canon, but how can I test for back focus issues?

For bratkinson: What does MFA stand for? Sorry for being ignorant, just learning the language.

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions.

Jonathan Holt
http://www.photojennet​te.com

photojennette wrote in post #16475089
For Sandpiper:

Can you explain this comment without acronyms?
I believe that Canon use a stronger AA filter than Nikon in some models, which does introduce a slight softness but that i8s easily corrected for at the sharpening stage in PP. If comparing shots SOOC then that may account for seeing some slight sharpness difference.

AA filter is "anti-alias" filter, a piece of glass that goes in front of the sensor to reduce moire patterning. Typically they also soften the image slightly, so when pixel peeping (viewing on a monitor at 100%) can cause some cameras to look a little softer than others, as the filter has a stronger effect. Once an image has been processed however, with normal sharpening applied the difference isn't noticeable at normal sizes.

PP is Post Processing (editing in Photoshop or similar).

SOOC is "straight out of camera", so before any editing has been applied (or has only the automatic in camera editing done, if shooting jpeg).

photojennette wrote in post #16475089
Are you saying that we shouldn't use Single Point AF with this comment?
I presume that your wife is using a single chosen AF point? Again, letting the camera have options is not ideal and can lead to it picking the wrong point.

I would assume using Single Point AF is much better than Focus areas, etc? The comment makes it seem as though using Single gives the camera more options.

Sorry, my bad, reading that back now, I see I put that in a somewhat ambiguous way. Yes, it was meant to read as you should be using single point, as NOT doing so lets the camera choose the point and it may not be the one you want.

In case Bratkinson doesn't revisit the thread, I'll cover the MFA bit too. MFA is micro focus adjustment, you can fine tune the camera to each lens, in effect calibrating them together for perfect focus. So, if your lens is slightly front focusing you can adjust the camera for that and it will tell the lens to focus slightly further back. The camera will remember different lenses, so you can program them all in and then forget about it. The only issue is if you use a second example of a specific lens model as the camera remembers them as "Canon 50mm f/1.4" only, so any Canon 50 1.4 you put on would be corrected by that amount.

You can test for front or back focus by downloading and printing a test chart with angled scale and use that. It can also be used for doing the MFA. Just be sure to follow the instructions carefully, as poor procedure when testing and adjusting can just complicate matters. If you google (or search you tube) for "Canon MFA" or similar, you should find plenty of ways to do it and view tutorials.

photojennette wrote in post #16475089
Holy smokes you guys are awesome. I can't believe I just found this community!

Best there is!

It *should*, with the usual "gotchas". If you are shooting with a very shallow DoF, and recomposing after attaining focus, then that minor shift can cause the semblance of missed focus. If the lens or body are out of mutual calibration, then although focus seems to be achieved, it is not quite at the right distance. Some lenses (notably in this case, the 50/1.8) are a bit hit and miss, especially in low light. Etc, etc.

There is still information to be gleaned, for example are they all front focused, or back-focused; could it be a problem with shallow DoF, or (although you have discounted this), inadvertant activation of an inappropriate AF point.

So when you frame the shot, you are always positioning the active AF point where you want focus, right? That is, no recomposing.

Options seem to be (no offense intended if I include novice errors):
- bad lens(es)
- bad calibration
- actually an issue with subject movement rather than focus
- a "gotcha" that the actual size of the AF sensor is bigger than the displayed square
- ummmm - maybe something else.

AA = antialiasing filter. An element in front of the sensor used to reduce moiré patterning by blurring the image a little, necessitating some sharpening in post-processing (PP).
SOOC = "straight out of camera".

I think this is the same point I and others have made. DO use a single AF point, not one of the modes that gives the camera the option of selecting the AF point(s) to use.

There are test charts available, shot at an oblique angle - do a search. Not everyone likes them. Another common approach is to have a diagonal line of standing batteries, again, shot obliquely with focus set to the middle one. Front or back focus should be evident.

Microfocus adjustment, the thing I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Tell the camera that a specific lens will front or back focus by a certain degree and have the AF procedure take this into account.

Just stumbled across this focus chart linked in another thread. Seems as good as many:
http://www.peleng8.com …k-focus.html#.UpFTdY37oy​5