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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 03 Dec 2013 (Tuesday) 23:52
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Seeking Advice on Beginner Studio and Flashes Gear

 
Alveric
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Dec 09, 2013 15:24 |  #16
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Note that the Mecablitz 58 AF-2 can be used as a master flash, so you can add more flashes later down the road and go wireless without radios. Infrared wireless does have limitations, though, such as in very bright environments or where you cannot bounce the signal, but other than that, it's a good and included-in-the-cost-of-the-equipment way of working.

The equipment that I recommended is top quality and will last you for a long time with proper care.

Also, if you're working without an assistant, moving bulky units not only is a bit of a chore but will impact your shooting time. Something to keep in mind, for not all clients are patient and/or understanding.


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MWxPhoto
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Dec 09, 2013 19:02 |  #17

Sorry, gonzogolf, I did misread :oops:

Alveric, thank you for your inputs. I am leaning toward the list you gave me.
You did mention weight though, and I am going to be working without an assistant, so do you have any comments/advice on how to manage all the equipment solo? Do you find some of the gears in your list to be lagging, in terms of portability?

Thank you.


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sirquack
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Dec 09, 2013 20:06 |  #18

Since it looks like you have decided to go for flash as your first option, do not be afraid to buy the Yongnuo flashed and triggers as your base for the kit. I have a YN 565 and it does ETTL and has an external battery port. If you wanted to go High Speed Sync, the YN 568 does that, but it does not have an external battery port. The Yongnuo 622c(Canon) triggers have been a work horse for me and work without fail 100% of the time. At a little over $40 per trigger they are ETTL and HSS capable and you can control your flash, in groups, from your flash menu on your camera. So I would definitely look there if you decide to go that route. Good luck and I look forward to your contributions in the future.


Name is Ron.
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MWxPhoto
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Dec 09, 2013 20:33 |  #19

Yea in one of my posts I was asking about Yonguo flashes. They seem quite popular... Do they have a lot of different models for people to choose from?

I just realized that the Mecablitz 58 AF-2 at $400 is coming up close to Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT (external link)... should I not just go for the Canon?


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pyrojim
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Dec 09, 2013 21:18 |  #20

MWxPhoto wrote in post #16514951 (external link)
Yea in one of my posts I was asking about Yonguo flashes. They seem quite popular... Do they have a lot of different models for people to choose from?

I just realized that the Mecablitz 58 AF-2 at $400 is coming up close to Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT (external link)... should I not just go for the Canon?



Are you still attached to having speedlites?


I hear people say they have use(obviously a joke, as they have utility), I just think you will get more out of even a budget studio strobe ( I almost typed speedotron again...)


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Alveric
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Dec 09, 2013 21:22 |  #21
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MWxPhoto wrote in post #16514766 (external link)
Alveric, thank you for your inputs. I am leaning toward the list you gave me.
You did mention weight though, and I am going to be working without an assistant, so do you have any comments/advice on how to manage all the equipment solo? Do you find some of the gears in your list to be lagging, in terms of portability?

Thank you.

The system I recommended to you is very portable. It's the same system I've been using for as long as I've been doing commercial assignments. Well, by now I've expanded, of course, but I still take that same arrangement with me to every shoot and are now mixing it with studio strobes. I got lucky, because the Mecablitz, when I purchased it, was only $299, but I'd still buy it at its current price over anything that Canon comes out with (I'll elaborate on this below); point in fact, it's still on my wish list and I do intend to buy at least another 58 AF-2 so as to reinforce the consistency of my lighting setup (the 430EX-II is less powerful and I have to be compensating for this, thank God for my lightmeter that makes things fast and easy).

My first purchase was that Manfrotto lightstand —which, case I haven't mentioned, it's air cushioned, which is a BIG plus for both your fingers and the light on it—, a Photoflex 45" umbrella —a real POS, you'll see soon—, and the Impact umbrella bracket I mentioned before. All that plus my 430EX-II with a PocketWizard TT5/TT1 duo. I worked with that for a few months till I got the Metz and the Photek umbrella and another TT5, and the Rogue grid pack. Woo, two lights now!

Take a look at these pictures (external link), please.

#1 is my old Photoflex. There's Chinese manufacturing for you: the plastic cap went missing after a few assignments, but by then the rips in the seams were there already: those happened within days of getting the brolly. Simply unacceptable, especially because I am not in the least bit hard on the equipment.

#2 shews you the difference in design: that's the Photek's system: a metal ring that prevents damage to the seams and the fabric, and no cap to go missing.

#3 is the silver lining for the Photek 45" (the 60" model does not have this, btw), and the detachable rod, er, detached.

#4 is the Mecablitz and TT5 mounted on a Cowboy Studio T bracket, something I forgot to mention and that you might want to buy in place (or in addition to) of the Manfrotto bracket/cold shoe combo. This bracket allows you to aim the flash head directly to the centre of the umbrella, right where the light is s'posed to hit. Normal brackets fail at this, and the light hits above the centre, especially when you're using a radio trigger or a hot shoe cable.

#5 has the flash/radio combo mounted on a regular umbrella bracket —a Westcott one. Note the problem of the light not being aimed directly at the centre of the brolly. But, the nice thing about the Metz flash, is that you can tilt it 7º downwards —which is also useful for when the flash is on the camera's hot shoe and you're doing macro work—, thus bringing the light closer to the centre.

#6 shews the flash head at 0º vs. the head at -7º in #7.

Finally, in #8 I just wanted to indicate to you that, whichever flash and bracket you purchase, you always make sure both the screw on the cold shoe AND the knurled nut on the flash unit (or the radio) are gently but firmly tightened. Just the screw on the bracket won't always hold the flash in position, and you don't want it to fall to the ground (and wind up with a broken unit) or, Heaven forbid, on someone's head (and possibly wind up with a lawsuit). I learned that from experience, but thank God neither of the options I mentioned happened, the flashes are still kicking.

*Here's the Cowboy Studio T mount (external link) I use. Don't let the price fool you, it's rugged and comes with a Bowens type ring that you can use to mount a softbox on it.

Regarding the Canon 600EX: I'd pass. The Metz blows it out of the water easily, for it is cheaper and of equal if not better quality. The inclusion of radio doesn't float my boat either: PocketWizards are cheaper and they can be used with ANY studio strobe with the appropriate cable, whilst the Canon system is most likely than not proprietary. Finally, the 600EX's electronics, improvements, and bells and whistles are mostly geared towards ETTL, for those who want the equipment to make all the decisions. This is another area that can open a whole different can o' worms, so I won't get into that so as to keep the thread focused, but I prefer to think and use manual settings all the way. Besides, working with a lightmeter, what the trout do I need EasyTTL for?


'The success of the second-rate is deplorable in itself; but it is more deplorable in that it very often obscures the genuine masterpiece. If the crowd runs after the false, it must neglect the true.' —Arthur Machen
Why 'The Histogram' Sux (external link)

  
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MWxPhoto
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Dec 09, 2013 22:37 |  #22

Thank you, Alveric, for the extensive feedback! I think I am definitely sold =)
The photos were very helpful.
I'm surprised the Manfrotto 026 Swivel doesn't angle the flash at the center of the umbrella, being $32 and all.
Too bad not all items are sold by B&H.

I also found these, wonder if anyone has used them? Seems comparable to the one on B&H (external link), but slightly larger stand. 78% off though, dunno if that means much (could be a gimmick).
SP2000 Backdrop Background Support (external link)
DIAMOND CLOTH WHITE (external link)


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elv
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Dec 09, 2013 22:47 as a reply to  @ Alveric's post |  #23

If you don't need TTL I would highly recommend the new Godox V850 -

http://flashhavoc.com …lithium-ion-flash-review/ (external link)

They have full remote manual control, AND 650 full power pops on one battery! That takes most of the stuffing around out of speedlites, and makes them a joy to use.

And you can buy them from $100 with battery and charger (external link).


Metz, and even Nissin, make great quality flashes at good prices, but the reason I don't mention them much is that they cause an awful lot of compatibility problems when it comes to off camera use with radio trigger systems.

Most of the triggers are now moving into the flashes, which is a lot more convenient and less to go wrong, and less battery management etc again. But Metz and Nissin show no signs of joining the radio flash list at this point -

http://flashhavoc.com …-built-in-radio-triggers/ (external link)
.


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elv
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Dec 09, 2013 22:55 |  #24

MWxPhoto wrote in post #16514951 (external link)
Yea in one of my posts I was asking about Yonguo flashes. They seem quite popular... Do they have a lot of different models for people to choose from?

I just realized that the Mecablitz 58 AF-2 at $400 is coming up close to Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT (external link)... should I not just go for the Canon?

Yes!... but for $400 you can also get the Phottix Mitros+ which has radio transceivers built in like the Canon flash. The Advantage the Mitros+ has (other than lower price) is a range of receivers available for manual studio lights etc. Canon has a closed system only for their 600EX-RT flashes at this point.

- http://flashhavoc.com …t-in-ttl-radio-announced/ (external link)
.


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gonzogolf
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Dec 10, 2013 09:13 |  #25

As well meaning as all the advice is to this point. I think your best bet would be to start simple with a single YN560II a set of inexpensive triggers a stand and a shoot through umbrella. You can find all that for a little over $100. Everyone is trying to sell you on what they use, and they are all good systems, but I'm not sure they offer the most value and they offer a good learning experience.




  
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elv
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Dec 10, 2013 17:46 |  #26

gonzogolf wrote in post #16516045 (external link)
As well meaning as all the advice is to this point. I think your best bet would be to start simple with a single YN560II a set of inexpensive triggers a stand and a shoot through umbrella. You can find all that for a little over $100. Everyone is trying to sell you on what they use, and they are all good systems, but I'm not sure they offer the most value and they offer a good learning experience.

I would say the Godox V850 likely are the best value for money at the moment. The YN-560 III was the previous option, but YN still do not have a good transmitter available, and who knows when they will at this rate.

By the time you buy other triggers, batteries and charger, its going to cost more, and you still don't have the convenience of remote manual control. And the V850 is a higher quality flash all round. And that's not to mention the built in battery pack which is the game changer.
.


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Safetybob
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Dec 10, 2013 20:45 |  #27

I tried to get here right after you first posed but couldn't because of a new network policy that won't allow me to login there.....

You have some great responses and it seems as if your narrowing down your choices. That's great. It took me some time to get the feel for what would be a good beginner system or even just what is a resonable choice just to try with. There are so many avenues to go down, one could spend decades just trying what's on the market right now, let alone 5 years from now.

My two cents was going to be something on the order of: if you are going down the speedlite route, then that off camera cord (or trigger) is what you need to do. Use it, find out why you need a little more (and that can be reflectors not simply more flash), and go forward.

My recommendation and it was put out there for you by most of the guys is Ok, get your required speedlite. Yes, I have one and use it quite often, but only for stuff that "I" am doing, I can't remember anytime I used it for something that I received money or compensation for.

An Alien Bee B800 or better yet a B1600 or even better yet, get an Einstien and be done with it, period. Yes there is better stuff and worse too. It's price is not out of the park and the VALUE it will bring to your flash game will be remarkable. You will be growing into it for a good year before you truly feel you have mastered it. With one of the above units, with either a homemade or store bought beauty dish and/or soft box/umbrella, you can play all day outside. I have recently started doing stuff outdoor in full sun, you need power and the results are great and most everyone loves the look.

So you have some money to invest in equipment. All of us have been there and yes, all of us hate blowing money on equipment unless we are certain there will be a payback. You will enjoy the use of a speedlite......you will really enjoy the results of a real studio strobe both indoor and outdoor.

I will also say it would probably be best to keep the speedlite 100% compatible with your camera for ease of use, studio strobes?? I shoot 100% manual because I got good solid equipement for a descent price and don't mind the hassle of using older, manual style equipment. Now if I was doing work for Sports Illustrated......I don't think you could get away with it. You would need the latest and greatest for control and to maximize the shoot. Time is money right there, not so much when I do it....

Bob E.




  
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MWxPhoto
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Dec 13, 2013 15:33 |  #28

So after reading more into flash brands, I found it to be more complicated than I thought. I will try to summarize them here, and please point out anything I may have missed or clarify anything I don't understand full. This will help a lot in my purchase decisions. Some stuff will be obvious (but needs to be stated, in case I do forget about them). Note: I am using "Speedlite" to mean all portable flashes compatible w/ Canon. I think that is the actual definition, right?

  • Flash can be achieved via strobe or speedlite (Canon's name for the small portable flash that can be used on or off camera).
  • Compared to Speedlites, strobes are generally more powerful, heavier, requires a bigger external battery pack or uses AC outlet, and not E-TTL compatible. Canon doesn't make strobes. For my purposes, I think a Speedlite is a better way to start.
  • Speedlite: can be Canon or third party. Canon 600EX-RT (currently $450) will utilize E-TTL, all the AF points, high speed sync, and basically all the fancy features available. Third party flash like Metablitz 58 AF-2 will also do most of these, but Canon would be better built and more rugged, for only $50 more (right now). Problem with Canon: You'd need to buy more Canon Speedlites (or expensive transmitter) in order to chain master/slave flashes. Even though 600EX-RT contains radio communication, it will not communicate with other third party speedlites. (can someone verify this?) To communicate with other third party speedlites or strobes, I will sitll need a PocketWizard of some sort, which defeats the purpose of buying the all-rounded Canon speedlites in the first place.
  • PocketWizard is the best wireless trigger for off camera flashes. It uses radio signals. It is ~$100, but comparing that with the $48 E-TTL compatible cord (shown in my previous list), it is a good purchase. Question: do you lose some sync speed because wireless is supposedly slower than wired communication? How much do you lose? I've heard PocketWizards can do High Speed Sync, so I am currently assuming that there is no functionality difference in getting a cord vs getting a PocketWizard.
  • The key to buying something like the Metablitz 58 AF-2 is that I could use it with a PocketWizard, which works on almost all strobes and speedlites (is this correct?). And once I have a PocketWizard, I can easily add in a cheap $100 flash as a slave in the future. On the other hand, I could also get the Canon 600EX-RT and also get a PocketWizard so I can use cheap $100 flashes as slaves. This means the Canon route is... only $50 more expensive right now?
  • With $400, I could just get a nice strobe, if I don't mind losing the E-TTL and portability. E-TTL doesn't seem to be that important for many people, but portability is important to me. So I think starting with a Speedlite is still my best pick...
  • I am not sure about E-TTL; it seems that all it does is setting the flash power for you. If that's the case, I don't see why I couldn't just use manual flash and take a few more photos to find good exposure. I guess flashes used for event/sports, which don't have the luxury of "second tries."
  • I do want High Speed Sync, to stop action. But I've seen photos using High Speed Sync and they look rather "flat"; why is that? Does HSS extend flash duration, or does it fire flash multiple times?


Somehow this kind of information, while obvious, is not stated very often and can confuse a beginner like me. Please let me know if I am missing some crucial points.
Again, this is just for flashes and the wireless trigger (or wired). I think I've settled on the other items (altho still baffled by how expensive that Manfrotto light stand is).
Thank you very much!

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gonzogolf
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Dec 13, 2013 15:45 |  #29

MWxPhoto wrote in post #16525060 (external link)
  • I do want High Speed Sync, to stop action. But I've seen photos using High Speed Sync and they look rather "flat"; why is that? Does HSS extend flash duration, or does it fire flash multiple times?

Somehow this kind of information, while obvious, is not stated very often and can confuse a beginner like me. Please let me know if I am missing some crucial points.
Again, this is just for flashes and the wireless trigger (or wired). I think I've settled on the other items (altho still baffled by how expensive that Manfrotto light stand is).
Thank you very much!

High speed sync is not designed to stop action. Its meant to allow you to use your flash in circumstances where its impossible to get your flash below traditional sync speed. For example if you want shallow depth of field on a sunny day with fill flash. Using the sunny 16 rule at ISO 100 you would have F16 at 1/100 shutter speed. To get to F2.8 your shutter speed would have to be in excess of 1/1000, much faster than traditional sync speed. Using HSS you can still use your flash under those circumstances. HSS isnt a panacea as you lose a lot of power when you shift into that mode and it probably wont be effective at 1/1000 but it will work.




  
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Alveric
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Dec 13, 2013 15:54 |  #30
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My answers are in red.

MWxPhoto wrote in post #16525060 (external link)
So after reading more into flash brands, I found it to be more complicated than I thought. I will try to summarize them here, and please point out anything I may have missed or clarify anything I don't understand full. This will help a lot in my purchase decisions. Some stuff will be obvious (but needs to be stated, in case I do forget about them). Note: I am using "Speedlite" to mean all portable flashes compatible w/ Canon. I think that is the actual definition, right?

  • Flash can be achieved via strobe or speedlite (Canon's name for the small portable flash that can be used on or off camera).
    Correct
  • Compared to Speedlites, strobes are generally more powerful, heavier, requires a bigger external battery pack or uses AC outlet, and not E-TTL compatible. Canon doesn't make strobes. For my purposes, I think a Speedlite is a better way to start.
    Correct
  • Speedlite: can be Canon or third party. Canon 600EX-RT (currently $450) will utilize E-TTL, all the AF points, high speed sync, and basically all the fancy features available. Third party flash like Metablitz 58 AF-2 will also do most of these, but Canon would be better built and more rugged, for only $50 more (right now).
    Incorrect. Were you comparing it to the Wrongnuo (:p), then yes; but the Metz is on par with Canon and Nikon in terms of build quality.
    Problem with Canon: You'd need to buy more Canon Speedlites (or expensive transmitter) in order to chain master/slave flashes. Even though 600EX-RT contains radio communication, it will not communicate with other third party speedlites. (can someone verify this?) To communicate with other third party speedlites or strobes, I will sitll need a PocketWizard of some sort, which defeats the purpose of buying the all-rounded Canon speedlites in the first place.
    Correct. Canon's system is closed. They want you to buy nothing but their equipment.
  • PocketWizard is the best wireless trigger for off camera flashes. It uses radio signals. It is ~$100, but comparing that with the $48 E-TTL compatible cord (shown in my previous list), it is a good purchase. Question: do you lose some sync speed because wireless is supposedly slower than wired communication? How much do you lose? I've heard PocketWizards can do High Speed Sync, so I am currently assuming that there is no functionality difference in getting a cord vs getting a PocketWizard.
    Huh? Are you talking about the PocketWizard X? The TT5 costs ~220 dollars, whilst the PW III is ~150 bucks. If you want to use E-TTL, you'll need the TT5. The X is just a trigger, and it doesn't have a hot shoe: you'll have to use a cable to connect it to the flashgun.
  • The key to buying something like the Metablitz 58 AF-2 is that I could use it with a PocketWizard, which works on almost all strobes and speedlites (is this correct?). And once I have a PocketWizard, I can easily add in a cheap $100 flash as a slave in the future. On the other hand, I could also get the Canon 600EX-RT and also get a PocketWizard so I can use cheap $100 flashes as slaves. This means the Canon route is... only $50 more expensive right now?
    You have to buy the compatible PW (i.e. for Canon), but yes, PW is more 'universal'. But note that you'll need a radio for each flashgun, unless said flashgun has an optical slave (which tend to be unreliable in very bright environments, such as outdoors, or when there are obstructions (i.e. corners) that prevent the slave from registering the flash from the other unit. This is the same problem with infrared signals, which all Canon flashguns up to the 600EX have used).
  • With $400, I could just get a nice strobe, if I don't mind losing the E-TTL and portability. E-TTL doesn't seem to be that important for many people, but portability is important to me. So I think starting with a Speedlite is still my best pick...
    Hardly. Nice strobes are not that cheap. Close, like this one (external link), but not that low in cost, no. Regarding TTL, some people swear by it. I hardly use it: it's finicky and not as easily controllable as manual. That's all I'm gonna say: don't want to turn this thread into a TTL vs manual tirade.
  • I am not sure about E-TTL; it seems that all it does is setting the flash power for you. If that's the case, I don't see why I couldn't just use manual flash and take a few more photos to find good exposure. I guess flashes used for event/sports, which don't have the luxury of "second tries.
    Correct
  • I do want High Speed Sync, to stop action. But I've seen photos using High Speed Sync and they look rather "flat"; why is that? Does HSS extend flash duration, or does it fire flash multiple times?
    It fires short burst of light multiple times. The result is that the power output will be lower. It can also eat your batteries faster.


Somehow this kind of information, while obvious, is not stated very often and can confuse a beginner like me. Please let me know if I am missing some crucial points.
Again, this is just for flashes and the wireless trigger (or wired). I think I've settled on the other items (altho still baffled by how expensive that Manfrotto light stand is).
Thank you very much!


'The success of the second-rate is deplorable in itself; but it is more deplorable in that it very often obscures the genuine masterpiece. If the crowd runs after the false, it must neglect the true.' —Arthur Machen
Why 'The Histogram' Sux (external link)

  
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