Seeking Advice on Beginner Studio and Flashes Gear

Thank you both for the quick and detailed replies!
It certainly clarified a few things for me (such as save for a nice strobe, and maybe using a wired solution is still much cheaper right now, HSS, and more).
I think for my first flash, I want it to be "well rounded" (so maybe no GoDox). I'll have to look into Phottix more, but right now I'm considering the Metablitz 58 AF-2 or Canon 600EX-RT. I like Canon's gears so I won't dismiss the 600EX-RT yet... but it sounds like using PocketWizards (which I will probably eventually get) with the Metablitz and other future flashes/stobes would be simpler than using PocketWizards with Canon.
How much simpler is still to be answered...
Do all radio transmitters/receivers work with one another? I am assuming no, and that I would need to specifically check what transmitter/receiver models work with what flash models.
Oh boy, more research...

No, they all use different frequencies.

PW's currently work with most flashguns. Some brands of studio flashes (a more accurate name for 'strobes') and power packs support the PW system: Dynalite's packs have a PW receiver built-in, and Paul C. Buff has a PW option for their Einstein units (dunno about their AlienBees, maybe someone who uses them can confirm this?). Sekonic meters equipped with radio triggering use the PW system.

This is the whole gamut of PocketWizard transmitters and receivers. Note that they have both a Canon and a Nikon variety. In your case you'll buy the Canon version of whichever unit you need (Canon and Nikon use different wiring for their hotshoes, that's why they have to have two kinds, one for each), and any flashgun —Canon, Metz, Nissin, Sunpak, etc., etc.— that is designed 'for Canon' will work with said PocketWizard, as they've all been wired to work on a Canon hotshoe.

For the record, the TT5 works fine with the 600EX-RT, so if that's what you end up buying, you shouldn't have any problems. You'll just not be using the unit's own radio triggering, but the PW's. This page lists all the units the PW is compatible with and if there are any particular issues and/or features that either do not work or need to be disabled/modified in order to work with the PW's.

Note that the list is not exhaustive. So, other units work as well. You'll see that the Mecablitz 58 AF-2 is not listed: that's because it has absolutely no issues with the PW! All features included in the flash (stroboscopic flash, E-TTL, etc.) work.

Alveric wrote in post #16525211
PW's currently work with most flashguns. Some brands of studio flashes (a more accurate name for 'strobes') and power packs support the PW system: Dynalite's packs have a PW receiver built-in, and Paul C. Buff has a PW option for their Einstein units (dunno about their AlienBees, maybe someone who uses them can confirm this?). Sekonic meters equipped with radio triggering use the PW system.

Forgot to add: studio units and power packs that have no native support for PW, still work with it. You'll just use a PW as a trigger. This is where the PlusX or Plus III come into their own: you plug them to the PC port of the strobes and you're rocking.

Look, I would try and work out if you're after a speedlight or bigger system first.

But as others have said a simple inexpensive speedlight is a good way to get started anyway.

And I don't think there is a better inexpensive speedlite available than the new Godox V850. I would have said YN-560 III otherwise, but they don't have a proper transmitter available yet.

No offence to Alveric, but I think he's throwing you a total curveball you really didn't need, talking about Metz flashes. Take a look at that list the V850 is in, that is where off camera flash is going, most lights will have their own radio system.

It is a really good idea to have one TTL flash for use on camera as well, but flashes other than the Metz will help if you decide to use that in an off camera system as well.


So either work out if you wan to start with a nice monolight like the an Einstein and VML etc, or speedlites, or possibly something inbetween like the Godox Witstro or Exenergizer.

If you decide to go (remote) manual speedlight, trust me the V850 kicks arse, you won't find a better manual speedlite currently, and it combines nicely with the Witstro radio system if you decide to expand. But on its own you still won't beat it. For $100 or so its a flash you won't want to sell even if you do go to monolights.
.

It still comes down to you needing to make some decisions:


(0) budget.

(1) system type? strobes or speedlites?

(2) Power. Do you have any power requirements if any?

(3) portability. Do you want a setup that is strobe based and portable? Or do you want a run and gun speedlite system?

(4) modifiers. what kind of modifiers do you want? or think you want?

Now, I realize fully that some of these imply the others. Budget obviously implies them all. but modifiers can imply many restrictions too.

for instance, if you want to show a large(5 foot octa bigger) high quality modifier, you are likely going to have to look at strobes, or battery packs if you want something that is portable in that you CAN move it, but don't plan on doing so often. Or have an assistant(or a friend that you either love or hate) help you schlep stuff.


Still, if you end up deciding to go with the big boy lights, used Speedotron gear is just so common and so cheap! Yes, I am still biased.


I also absolutely hate using Pocket Wizard triggers. I recommend the pro series ones from calumet and they work perfectly AND are small AND are cheap, I DO use them myself.

EDIT- I just re-read your original post. The direction other replies are going had distracted me as well.

Double EDIT - pyrojim above just beat me to it, but anyway....

Your mainly after a studio set up, but $300 is not a small to medium budget, its a tiny tiny budget for this!

If you're not interested in location/outdoors then AC power monolights are much better suited. Its always a dilemma though whether to bother with cheap monolights at all though, because you likely will want to upgrade and then its money lost.

That's why a lot of people start with speedlites as well anyway, like I mentioned for $100 bucks or so your getting the best manual speedlight, as opposed to the worst monolight.

But if you definitely don't want to use location lights, have a look at the Mettle AC strobes, or Adorama Flashpoint, or Godox GS. Or just pick up one Alienbee 800 to start with.

There's no point blowing all your budget on a high end TTL flash if that's not really what you're after. The big advantage of speedlites is portability for location work, so I would consider carefully if you are really not after that as well.
.

Thanks for the inputs.

Just to clarify, I want to start with: one off camera flash, one stand, one umbrella. It will be used for both indoors and outdoors portrait. Down the road I will want to use it at events such as weddings. I will also eventually want better lights for an indoor studio (so monolights, eventaully). To start though, I will go with a speedlite (I think I said that a few posts back).

Don't take the original $300 budget to heart. That was when I had no idea how much these things cost.

I'm going to have to re read some of the posts. I think the GoDox V850 is really neat. But since I want a well-rounded speedlite to start, I am thinking about TTL off camera as a necessity (although I'm still on the fence about this). If I do not get that feature, I will still need to read into the GoDox system and think about down-the-road usage. It seems that GoDox has its own radio system, so I wouldn't really use it with PocketWizards?

MWxPhoto: I think you've already identified your needs, and even your best candidates. Whilst *I* dislike TTL, I admit it has its uses. Even though I don't like it, I still want my flashguns and radio triggers to be capable of it. It's like with cars: given the choice between a subcompact and an SUV, and assuming I have money to purchase either, which one would I take? The SUV of course! Sure, both can take me from point A to point B, but the SUV has more power, more room, and more range. I might not be using all that power every day, when I'm driving from my house to the office, but it's good to have it there, ready for when I need it; you know, those times when I have to fit a 107" roll of seamless and a background system, in addition to my camera pack, and the subcompact just can't take it.

I'm just going to relate an experience I had when I was looking for a solution to get the flash off-camera. I went to the local camera shop looking for a TTL cable. The Canon cable was 'overpriced' (though I did have enough money to buy it), and so, looking at my hesitation, the salesman suggested a radio trigger. PocketWizards were just out of my league, but he shewed me a Cactus trigger. At 100 bucks it was a steal of a deal! Really... I get home and test it, and voila, off-camera flash! Woo— er, what? No TTL? Shucks! Ah well, I can still do manual, so what's the problem? It was cheap, after all!

Then I needed to use rear curtain mode; guess what, the cheap POS couldn't do that. Now, I did have a real problem for which I could not improvise. What finished printing the POS label on the Cactus was the fact that whilst the portion that the flash was mounted on took AAA batteries, the trigger on the camera used a round battery. The specs stated that the battery could be changed, and even gave the battery type. But there was no way to open the unit. The manual described how to install/change the AAA batteries on the part attached to the flashgun, but not on the part attached to the camera. It was a one-trip pony, and by the time I found this out it was too late to take it back to the store and return it.

Things might be cheap, but you pay for them many times over, both in money and frustration. I was given this advice once: always buy the best equipment you can afford. That's why I don't bother with CCS (Cheap Chinese S...tuff). Whenever you ask Chinese entrepreneurs what is their products' competitive advantage the answer you get is 'bast price!'. 'OK, but in terms of quality—' 'Bast price!'. 'Alright, but what about reliabili—' 'Bast price!!' Kinda like the Adobe CEO dodging questions.

Bottom line: buy the best unit you can afford in terms of quality, longevity and compatibility. You want your equipment to last you for years, not weeks or months. Buy the SUV even if now you're only driving to work; you'll be grateful instead of grumbling later on, when you do need to make that trip to the national park or need to carry 10 cases of equipment.

Well said.

I think what I need to do now is just to review the different systems and combinations this weekend... my hunch tells me to not go with Canon, despite how much I like Canon's stuff, and save some room for future gear by going with Metablitz.

GoDox V850 looks quite advanced and ready for a new era... maybe as a slave flash? Too tired to review right now..

Ok know we are going down a slightly different path again, with weddings etc on the agenda. But this is also much more what my website tends to revolve around, because putting together a good combination of gear for wedding and events is also the most demanding, (in terms of requiring a TTL flash on camera combined with remote systems).


Every day I get half a dozen emails with people trying to work out how to fit their third party speedlites into the mix, and mixing third party gear is the biggest source of issues.

So if you can avoid the from the start you're a big step ahead! So do yourself a favor and forget the damn Metablitza !! They are great on-camera flashes, but once you start looking at off camera systems you start limiting your options.

Again I would take a look at this list - http://flashhavoc.com …-built-in-radio-triggers/

But now that you need a TTL master unit on camera your options are very much limited. Godox will no doubt have a more integrated TTL system with the V850 eventually, but as of now it doesn't exist.

So the best options currently are the Canon flash, which is also likely to be opened up with the YongNuo system offering more options (hopefully a receiver for manual studio lights etc).

Otherwise Phottix has the only complete system right now with the Mitros+ and Odin.

This time next year you can bet most manufacturers will have complete systems like this, but for now the best bet is the Canon, Phottix and YongNuo system to some degree.

PocketWizard have been left behind a little in this area of the marked, as they don't currently have a speedlite, or collaboration with a speedlite manufacturer. They may have something in the works but we don't know. Piecing together separate triggers, with pass through hotshoe on the camera has never been ideal. You won't find many people, (if anyone) that has moved to the Canon system, and wants to go back to PW.

A lot of people are hanging out for the YongNuo RT system at the moment (as its half the price of Canon's, and also compatible with Canon's system). So buying one original reliable Canon 600EX-RT and expanding with YongNuo gear is a pretty decent option too.
.

Thank you, elv. I will take a look at those more closely tomorrow. Do note, that events/weddings is a dream that may or may not happen.

MWxPhoto wrote in post #16526087
Thank you, elv. I will take a look at those more closely tomorrow. Do note, that events/weddings is a dream that may or may not happen.

No problem, that's cool. I guess the point to be clear on is that Metz won't give you more options, only less. You can do any set up you can do with the Metz with the Canon flash, and a lot more.

All Canon compatible third party triggers need to be fully compatible with the original Canon flash. Where as they don't have to be compatible with other third party's like Metz at all if they don't want to.

But when I say fully compatible, YongNuo are the only ones that have currently taped directly into Canon's current RT radio system.

.

So I spent the day reading more about flashes...
I feel like flash units will go through a big evolution soon, in terms of communication methods and battery types. Triggers are being integrated into the flashes, and it'll be up to the various companies to support other brands (or not). It seems worthwhile to wait and see what happens to the world of studio lighting.
With that said, I think I should just get the best flash (since I am only going with 1 flash right now) for my camera, which means getting the 600EX-RT. Then, with a wired solution, I don't have to think about wireless triggers quite yet. But if I do get a trigger, I can rest assure knowing that I would still have the best features. The downside is that I might be blocking myself for integrating my flash with other third party strobes/speedlites, at which point I might need Pocket Wizards... but I think the 600EX-RT will do very well until I can financially think about studio strobes. Plus, for additional flashes, I can get cheaper speedlites and use the 600EX-RT as optical master and fire things off that way, manually (unless I read it wrong.. can someone verify?)

Edit: Alveric pointed out that Metz 58 AF-2 but is as good as (or better than) the Canon 600EX-RT. I tried to find more reviews about it, but wasn't so successful. So in terms of numbers of positive feedback that I can find between those 2, the Canon one is leading.

If I am missing something here, and that this is the wrong way to go, please kick me again and let me know, thanks!

Inter-brand support is more like a pipe dream than the actual future. There's more to closed designs than a given company wanting to force users to buy nothing but their own gear (although it is certainly a reason); a greater reason is that R&D is a legal minefield, what with so many patents and the risk or being sued left and right.

When there is a patent, the only way for company A to make its products work with those of company B is through licencing. And this depends on whether A sees any advantage, besides the monies coming from the licence, in giving B the opportunity to use its technology.

The problem is not technology, but lawyers, as usual. Thus, even though the technological milieu is in a permanent state of flux, making a decision based on speculation or hopes that this or that will become available is quite a bit of a gamble. It does happen every now and then, mind; there's the case of Profoto partnering up with Hensel and giving Hensel flashes the ability to use Profoto's radio triggering system. But whether Canon will open up to other companies, hmm, I wouldn't put any bets on that.

I just want to clarify two things: first, the 600EX is not a bad flash. It'll serve you well, whether you use it in manual or E-TTL. You're free to use Canon's own radio triggering and/or a 3rd party system. With 3rd party systems, you just have to make sure said system supports the unit AND ALL its features, lest you end up in the same situation I did with the Cactus. Now, I can only speak for PW's —as that is what I use and I'm not interested in switching to any other system simply because the PW's work for me and they're made in America—, and their page reports the 600EX as supported. Radios aside, the 600EX still supports the old infrared wireless system and it has full manual mode too. Do note that some of the newest and niftiest features only work with cameras released after AD 2012, so your current camera may or may not take advantage of them. B&H's video of the flashgun is quite descriptive. Heh, you probably have watched it by now. One thing I do like about the Canon flash is that it can zoom up to 200mm, something the MeCablitz cannot do. Heck, you can even use it to trigger monolights (when you migrate to those later on) equipped with optical slaves by using a burst of light from the flash: no radios or infrared needed.

The second thing I want to clarify: I do not get kickbacks from Metz, Hensel, Manfrotto, Photek, or any other manufacturer; nor from B&H, Adorama, Vistek, or any other store. I make a living by taking photographs, not through reviews or affiliate programs. What I have advised to you is the product of my own field experience with the equipment; equipment that I purchased after doing extensive research (the manufacturer's web sites, product manuals and white papers, non-biased reviews from reputable sites, and yea comments from actual users), and by being burned now and then by a bad product. Other than the small satisfaction of having avoided you potential problems and frustration due to equipment of poor quality, I receive no recompense whatsoever if you end up purchasing what I suggested or not.

elv wrote in post #16526093
[...] Everyone else (like PocketWizard as well) are just using the optic wireless system and transferring that to radio.

You are describing the RadioPoppers, sir. The PocketWizard system does NOT use the infrared signals at all. If you took the trouble to examine a PocketWizard unit you would see that they have NO IR sensor! Please investigate before you make incorrect statements such as that one, and others you have made above, comments that come not out of actual knowledge of a given system or unit, but out of overt aversion for a particular German manufacturer.

Alveric - I realize that wasn't a great way to describe it, I was just trying to get the message across in a hurry.

I don't have anything against Metz, I really like their design. Third party Chinese flashes cause just as much compatibility issues. Metz will likely build their own radio system too eventually.
.

MWxPhoto - Yes that's a fairly good summary of the current situation.

The only thing is you may end up not being all that bothered by any of it anyway. You may just end up with a set of PCB monilights, and not really concerned about integrating your TTL flash etc.

The other thing is, going back to the original decision, A top end TTL flash eats up a lot of budget, and its fairly limited use off camera. A $75 YN-560 III will do about the same, but at least you can get a few of those.

So that's what I would be waying up, is a TTL flash really what your after at the moment, or would a monolight, or a few manual speedlites be more useful.

The 600EX-RT is reduced to $449 at B&H, Amazon and Adorama at the moment by the way.
.