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Thread started 26 Dec 2013 (Thursday) 19:59
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"Reasonable Rates" for Models

 
charlesu
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Dec 26, 2013 19:59 |  #1

I'm getting SOOOOOO tired of seeing new girls pop up on Model Mayhem and OMP and the like with 1-2 shoots (usually bad ones) under their belts and claiming that while they no longer do TF (because of all their experience and their fine portfolios) they have reasonable rates.

I just had another model quote me 'reasonable rates' of $150 per hour. She had 4 very mediocre pictures up. While this rate is top end for a really good model who is well-published (Playboy, etc.), experienced and capable, even those models often negotiate their rates down for longer bookings or for partial exchanges, etc. And $150 is just insane for a girl with a couple of GWC shoots under her belt and no other relevant experience and who brings nothing to a shoot but a pretty face and/or nice figure.

My guess is that these models are doing a shoot with inexperienced photographers who are filling their heads with silly high numbers about what their time is worth.

What is going on in this world? Am I that out of touch with what a reasonable rate is? I'm booking other good, experienced models for $50 to $75 per hour for fine-art work.

Your thoughts?


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KeyserSoze1
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Dec 26, 2013 20:15 |  #2

Don't pay them. Unless they're published and is a legitimate model (agency represented) that can help your portfolio.


I know this is a way for some models to make money but I'm in the minority of group of photographers who feels freelanced models, especially those who doesn't have strong work, has not worked with any known photographer, shouldn't get paid when you're essentially trading images and the photographer does a lot more work than the model anyway.


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Littlejon ­ Dsgn
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Dec 26, 2013 20:20 |  #3

I think it depends on what you are wanting to shoot and what the model is willing to shoot.

I expect to pay a little for a good bikini model, a bit more for implied, again more for topless and again more for full nude. At this point I have only paid for one model and it was not all that worth it, and she was $20 an hour for bikini work. Not sure what reasonable is but I have no issue finding "amateurs" at this point for TFP. I know if I was looking for someone who new what she was doing I would still cap my search at about $50 an hour for a 2-3 hour shoot for topless to nude.




  
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banquetbear
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Dec 31, 2013 21:22 |  #4

charlesu wrote in post #16556011 (external link)
I'm getting SOOOOOO tired of seeing new girls pop up on Model Mayhem and OMP and the like with 1-2 shoots (usually bad ones) under their belts and claiming that while they no longer do TF (because of all their experience and their fine portfolios) they have reasonable rates.

I just had another model quote me 'reasonable rates' of $150 per hour. She had 4 very mediocre pictures up. While this rate is top end for a really good model who is well-published (Playboy, etc.), experienced and capable, even those models often negotiate their rates down for longer bookings or for partial exchanges, etc. And $150 is just insane for a girl with a couple of GWC shoots under her belt and no other relevant experience and who brings nothing to a shoot but a pretty face and/or nice figure.

My guess is that these models are doing a shoot with inexperienced photographers who are filling their heads with silly high numbers about what their time is worth.

What is going on in this world? Am I that out of touch with what a reasonable rate is? I'm booking other good, experienced models for $50 to $75 per hour for fine-art work.

Your thoughts?

...you live in a free market. "Reasonable rate" is subjective. If you don't want to pay the rate they are asking you can either negotiate or move on. What they choose to do is really none of your business. You are booking good, experienced models at a rate you can afford. So what is the problem exactly?


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paintedlotus
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Dec 31, 2013 23:06 as a reply to  @ banquetbear's post |  #5

I know exactly what you're talking about and I agree that it's pretty ridiculous, but I view it as free entertainment-- they're always good for a laugh. It's almost always the newbie stereotypical "hot girls", regardless of modeling ability or actual photogenic qualities, who do this. But as others have said, they can *ask* for whatever they want. Whether or not they get it is something else entirely, and if they do, it's most likely from the GWC types who will pay regardless.

It's a fairly consistent cycle of mediocrity, which I try to steer well clear of. But I don't really do a lot of nude/glamour photography, so what do I know. :)



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sspellman
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Jan 01, 2014 14:30 |  #6

Many pretty girls get into the modeling world with unreasonable expectations. So what? You can easily ignore or make another offer. Move ahead with your own success, and don't get stuck in the mud of other peoples drama.


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charlesu
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Jan 02, 2014 16:55 |  #7

banquetbear wrote in post #16568136 (external link)
...you live in a free market. "Reasonable rate" is subjective. If you don't want to pay the rate they are asking you can either negotiate or move on. What they choose to do is really none of your business. You are booking good, experienced models at a rate you can afford. So what is the problem exactly?

Yes, I understand the free-market economy. In fact, I was an economics major (among others) in undergraduate school.

What I'm remarking about is the swelling of relatively new models with little talent, little experience, etc. asking for more per hour than my doctor makes.

The problem? Well, I think the problem is that I'm not getting to work with models that I would like to work with. The models are not getting the bookings they'd like to get (they are not maximizing their own revenue). And it seems those models quickly grow disillusioned with the "industry" when photographers aren't simply lining up to pay them high rates.

The question in my mind is where they get the idea for suggesting something like $150 per hour. I know for a fact that many of the models I have spoken to have been told they are worth that by the first person to shoot them. Usually, that person is a GWC who takes terrible photos, has no artistic eye and usually no original concept and has no idea how to coach a model. The GWC gets pics of a nekkid girl or nearly nekkid girl or whatever. The girl gets a huge ego boost because someone took pics of them and told them they were worth a pile of money and to get on MM or OMP or MB, etc. and post ridiculous rates.

I'm sure there are other sources for new models posting such high rates. But I've not really heard of any.

Frankly, it's OK if I don't get to shoot someone who cannot figure the market out. Models are like buses. There will be another one along in a few minutes. But, for those who get disillusioned and never get to experience their potential it's probably a little disappointing.


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banquetbear
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Jan 02, 2014 17:26 |  #8

charlesu wrote in post #16572544 (external link)
Yes, I understand the free-market economy. In fact, I was an economics major (among others) in undergraduate school.

What I'm remarking about is the swelling of relatively new models with little talent, little experience, etc. asking for more per hour than my doctor makes.

...my hourly event rate is $180.00 per hour + GST. I charge that rate because I want to cover my overheads and make a profit. Comparing what I charge and what a doctor charges is as ridiculous as...well...comparing what a model charges to what a doctor charges. Is my rate ridiculous?

The problem? Well, I think the problem is that I'm not getting to work with models that I would like to work with.

Why would you want to work with them? You've just stated that these models have little talent and little experience, and you've also stated you have no problem booking good talent at the price you can afford.

So once again: what is the problem?

The models are not getting the bookings they'd like to get (they are not maximizing their own revenue). And it seems those models quickly grow disillusioned with the "industry" when photographers aren't simply lining up to pay them high rates.

How do you know what bookings the models are or are not getting? You can't judge that from their portfolio alone. As I said: what other people do really isn't any of your business.

The question in my mind is where they get the idea for suggesting something like $150 per hour.

That price is industry standard here.

I know for a fact that many of the models I have spoken to have been told they are worth that by the first person to shoot them.

What is your sample size? There are over 800 000 models on model mayhem, how many have you spoken to? This hasn't been my experience at all.

Usually, that person is a GWC who takes terrible photos, has no artistic eye and usually no original concept and has no idea how to coach a model. The GWC gets pics of a nekkid girl or nearly nekkid girl or whatever. The girl gets a huge ego boost because someone took pics of them and told them they were worth a pile of money and to get on MM or OMP or MB, etc. and post ridiculous rates.

And there are many models who are happy to shoot with GWC who also happen to choose to pay their rates. Free market at work. I thought you were an economics major?

I'm sure there are other sources for new models posting such high rates. But I've not really heard of any.

You should look harder.

Frankly, it's OK if I don't get to shoot someone who cannot figure the market out. Models are like buses. There will be another one along in a few minutes. But, for those who get disillusioned and never get to experience their potential it's probably a little disappointing.

I'm disappointed I can't afford to fly into space. I'm disappointed I drive a Ford Mondeo. I'm disappointed I don't have a pony. Welcome to life. If you want to book the model, then negotiate, or pay his/her price. I'm not sure what outcome you are looking for here. Do you want to regulate what models can charge?


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charlesu
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Jan 02, 2014 19:17 |  #9

[QUOTE=banquetbear;165​72626]...my hourly event rate is $180.00 per hour + GST. I charge that rate because I want to cover my overheads and make a profit. Comparing what I charge and what a doctor charges is as ridiculous as...well...comparing what a model charges to what a doctor charges. Is my rate ridiculous?

Yup. Pretty much. It is. If you're a freelance model with little experience or talent.

Thanks for making my point.


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banquetbear
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Jan 02, 2014 19:46 |  #10

charlesu wrote in post #16572911 (external link)
banquetbear wrote in post #16572626 (external link)
...my hourly event rate is $180.00 per hour + GST. I charge that rate because I want to cover my overheads and make a profit. Comparing what I charge and what a doctor charges is as ridiculous as...well...comparing what a model charges to what a doctor charges. Is my rate ridiculous?

Yup. Pretty much. It is. If you're a freelance model with little experience or talent.

...you haven't explained why yet.

And I'm not a freelance model with little experience or talent. I'm a photographer, and that is my photography rate.

Why is my rate ridiculous?

Thanks for making my point.

Oooh! Let me try!

"I have a pony."

:: opens eyes. no pony ::

Hmmmm. Just saying stuff doesn't make it real. How disappointing.

And claiming I've made your point when I haven't made your point doesn't mean I've made your point.

What point do you think I've made?


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Somebloke
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Jan 02, 2014 20:11 |  #11

banquetbear wrote in post #16573005 (external link)
...you haven't explained why yet.

And I'm not a freelance model with little experience or talent. I'm a photographer, and that is my photography rate.

Why is my rate ridiculous?

Oooh! Let me try!

"I have a pony."

:: opens eyes. no pony ::

Hmmmm. Just saying stuff doesn't make it real. How disappointing.

And claiming I've made your point when I haven't made your point doesn't mean I've made your point.

What point do you think I've made?

I didn't think it was all that hard to follow-ur rate is justified because you are an experienced professional with thousands of dollars invested. On the other hand a new inexperienced model isn't worth the same as you for these exact reasons....?

It's not rocket surgery...

We have a similar problem in our general economy over here-newbie grads expecting $60k+ straight out of uni because someone told them thats what they worth. They then spend the next 1-2 years unemployed complaining they can't get a job and end up missing out on so many opportunities. Some times you need to work you way up...




  
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banquetbear
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Jan 02, 2014 20:33 |  #12

Somebloke wrote in post #16573069 (external link)
I didn't think it was all that hard to follow-ur rate is justified because you are an experienced professional with thousands of dollars invested. On the other hand a new inexperienced model isn't worth the same as you for these exact reasons....?

...but why isn't their rate justified? If people will pay it (and some people do), then why can't they charge what the market will bear? There are photographers out there who buy all of their equipment with money from their primary job and have virtually no skill at all and charge more than me. Is their rate justified?

We have a similar problem in our general economy over here-newbie grads expecting $60k+ straight out of uni because someone told them thats what they worth. They then spend the next 1-2 years unemployed complaining they can't get a job and end up missing out on so many opportunities. Some times you need to work you way up...

But this isn't a "problem" to you, is it? Its a problem to them. And how many newbie grads actually exhibit this behaviour? And how many "opportunities" do they miss?


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Iancentric
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Jan 02, 2014 20:39 |  #13

around my neck of the woods, Alberta, $50-$75 would be a reasonable rate for models. $180/hour for event photog would be at the low end..

I would not pay $150 hour for model, for portfolio pics from a rookie model. Probably wouldn't pay that for a very experienced model either...


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Somebloke
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Jan 02, 2014 20:45 |  #14

banquetbear wrote in post #16573129 (external link)
...but why isn't their rate justified? If people will pay it (and some people do), then why can't they charge what the market will bear? There are photographers out there who buy all of their equipment with money from their primary job and have virtually no skill at all and charge more than me. Is their rate justified?

But this isn't a "problem" to you, is it? Its a problem to them. And how many newbie grads actually exhibit this behaviour? And how many "opportunities" do they miss?

Without going to far into it I feel it's symptomatic of the whole 'entitlement' generation we currently have. A certain % of gen Y's think they deserve it all without having earnt it. The fact that there are a few idiots out there who pay them the stupid rates only serves to fuel this unrealistic expectation. Patents and teachers are largely to blame, pumping up everyone's expectations far out of line with reality...

Is it a problem for me....hmmm yes and no. It would be a lot easier for everyone concerned if I could employ them straight out of Uni rather than wait for them to come back tail between their legs in 12 months time..by which I have to say thanks but no thanks.

But I take your point about the free market. But what the OP is getting at is he is missing the chance to work with these models due to their unrealistic expectations who invariably drop out due to lack of work.




  
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banquetbear
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Jan 02, 2014 20:57 |  #15

Somebloke wrote in post #16573155 (external link)
Without going to far into it I feel it's symptomatic of the whole 'entitlement' generation we currently have. A certain % of gen Y's think they deserve it all without having earnt it. The fact that there are a few idiots out there who pay them the stupid rates only serves to fuel this unrealistic expectation. Patents and teachers are largely to blame, pumping up everyone's expectations far out of line with reality...

...I don't see an "entitlement" generation around me. You see what you want to see.

Is it a problem for me....hmmm yes and no. It would be a lot easier for everyone concerned if I could employ them straight out of Uni rather than wait for them to come back tail between their legs in 12 months time..by which I have to say thanks but no thanks.

So it really isn't a problem for you then?

But I take your point about the free market. But what the OP is getting at is he is missing the chance to work with these models due to their unrealistic expectations who invariably drop out due to lack of work.

He said in the OP that he has no problem getting the models he needs at the prices he can afford. If there is a certain look that he wants for his images, he has the choice to either pay the price being asked for, to negotiate or to move on. If he really wants to work with them he pays the price. If he can negotiate a lower price then everyone is happy.

But also remember some models quote high prices because they don't want to work with someone and maybe the OP is running into some of these people.


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