60D vs. 70D..... Worth upgrading?

I have a 60D now and I'm just kicking around the idea of jumping to the 70D. My main reason just from reading the description was the 70D's jump to the DIGIC 5+ processor and more pixels from the DIGIC 4 in the 60D.

Is there enough difference in picture detail to justify the upgrade?


.

70D differences :

-much better AF system and low light focusing ability

- slightly better ISO performance and much better noise characteristics

- improved jpeg engine

- bigger VF

- amazing MFA 2.0

- very fast LV focusing for video and stills

- more weather sealed and dust proof metal body

- bigger buffer (7FPS for 18 raw files, then about 4FPS with UHS SD card)

etc...

- i think only MFA is worth of upgrade...

reefvilla wrote in post #16571329
...Is there enough difference in picture detail to justify the upgrade?

Picture detail = no. The sensors image quality wise look to be nearly identical.

Feature set = maybe. The 70D has some features that can be very helpful such as MFA and the phase detect AF in LV, great for video.

This is opinion, not tested fact. If you shoot JPG at 3200+ you may notice a slight improvement in noise performance. If you are already processing raw shots at 3200+, I don't thing the improvement is worth paying for.

However, the PDAF of the 70D is a huge improvement if you use LV or video. Add MFA and custom exposure controls (ISO safety shift, min. shutter speed, etc.) to the list and you have a serious upgrade, if you need those things.

I'll keep my 60D, thanks. But I can certainly see it as an upgrade for lots of folks.

I have just upgraded to the 70D and I am very happy with the results i am getting from the 70D

palad1n wrote in post #16571391
70D differences :

-much better AF system and low light focusing ability

- slightly better ISO performance and much better noise characteristics

- improved jpeg engine

- bigger VF

- amazing MFA 2.0

- very fast LV focusing for video and stills

- more weather sealed and dust proof metal body

- bigger buffer (7FPS for 18 raw files, then about 4FPS with UHS SD card)

etc...

Well put.

With a 70d you won't feel like you're missing features, with a 60d you may indeed by satisfied with it but you'll know you're making some sacrifices. A 70d won't make you feel the need to upgrade for a while.

BrickR wrote in post #16571799
Well put.

With a 70d you won't feel like you're missing features, with a 60d you may indeed by satisfied with it but you'll know you're making some sacrifices. A 70d won't make you feel the need to upgrade for a while.

I doubt I will take advantage of all the extra's the 70D has to offer but it sounds like a nice list.
So the 70D is metal instead of plastic?

barrie, you said you upgraded, from the 60D to the 70D I assume? How does it feel in your hands? Is it a lot heavier?


.

palad1n wrote in post #16571391
70D differences :

-much better AF system and low light focusing ability

- slightly better ISO performance and much better noise characteristics

- improved jpeg engine

- bigger VF

- amazing MFA 2.0

- very fast LV focusing for video and stills

- more weather sealed and dust proof metal body

- bigger buffer (7FPS for 18 raw files, then about 4FPS with UHS SD card)

etc...

- i think only MFA is worth of upgrade...

Better AF system is true.... It's similar to the 7D's, more sophisticated and more user configurable for different situations. Additional AF points (19 vs 9). Peripheral points (all those other than the center) that are a bit more usable. A "center point only" shooter won't see much difference, but anyone else will have more choices and find the outer points somewhat more usable.

The 70D's 19-point AF is a slightly scaled down version of the 7D's. The 70D lacks two of the AF point selection modes that the 7D offers: Expansion Points and Spot Focus. Otherwise, functionality is about the same. Both cameras offer All Points, Single Point and Zone Focus.

The 7D also has a discrete chip running the AF system (1D series style)... 60D and, AFAIK, 70D don't. he 70D uses a newer generation and more powerful Digic 5 processor, though, which might largely negate any differences this might make. (7D uses dual Digic 4 processors to support it's slightly higher frame rate.)

But Canon rates the 70D's AF system low light capabilities nearly the same as the 60D's. In bright light, the 60D's is actually rated to be more usable than the 70D's. Canon's ratings.... 60D: 0EV to 20EV. 70D -0.5EV to 18EV. (In comparison: 7D is rated same as 70D, while one of the best, 5D Mark III is rated -2EV to 18EV.) In use it may be a bit better handling low light than rated (I know the 5DII's is better than it's rated, while the 7D's is pretty much exactly as stated). Still, it's only a half EV difference, so don't expect a big difference in low light. Two full EV difference in bright light might be more significant, depending upon what situations you more commonly shoot.

20MP vs 18MP is pretty much a yawner.

Slightly better high ISO and noise handling seems to be true. Emphasis on "slightly", though. 70D does go a bit higher on the ISO scale, to 25600 (compared with 12800).... you'll have to be the judge whether it's usable, though.

Bigger VF? The 70D has a 98%, X.95 magnification, 22mm eye relief VF. 60D has a 96%, X.95 mag, 22mm VF. Personally I'd call that a pretty mild improvement.

70D gets the same active matrix/transmissive LCD screen as 7D (and 5DIII, 1DX, though those cams use it with a different AF system). This takes a bit of getting used to, but is neat once you feel comfortable with it. It does make the VF slightly less bright, though. And focus screens technically aren't interchangeable (so using manual focus lenses might be more difficult... or expensive/limiting if a third party focus screen is fitted).

The active matrix/transmissive LCD screen offers a couple more neat little features. One is grid on demand. You can add a grid at the push of a button, rather than having to change out the focus screen. It also allows an electronic level to be displayed in the viewfinder. (Both these also can be displayed on the rear LCD monitor. In fact there are more grid options on the rear monitor, than in the viewfinder of the 70D). These can be handy features for architectural photography, among other things.

Definitely Micro Focus Adjust 2.0 is a big improvement. In fact 60D didn't have any form of MFA at all (even though it's predecessor the 50D did), so any form of it provided would be an improvement. But in fact the 70D's is better than version 1.0 on 7D. If you use MFA, yes it might be worth the upgrade. Not everyone bothers with it. Still, better to have it, just in case it's needed with your particular lenses (and you don't feel like sending them in for calibration).

The new focusing system in Live View and video is a true game changer... if you shoot Live View and/or video frequently. The Dual Pixel CMOS isn't new, other manufacturers have used something like it in some cameras for a few years. However, Canon's implementation of it on the 70D appears to be far and away the most sophisticated use of the technology yet done by any manufacturer. Canon claims it's possible to focus anywhere withint 80% of the image area, while many other manufacturers limit their Dual Pixel focusing to just a few select points within the image area.

One limitation is that the Dual Pixel CMOS cannot track movement for continuous shooting (i.e., viewfinder/AI Servo style). It's main claim to fame is speed that rivals that of One Shot using the viewfinder. That's a big improvement over the ploddingly slow Live View focus of previous models.

I haven't seen any info about increased sealing or more metal clad body than the 60D. AFAIK, it's built about the same as the 60D.... some plastic, but still solid feeling (i.e., plastic isn't necessarily a bad thing... it can be quite durable, done right).

Canon rates the buffers of both 60D and 70D to around 16 RAW files. They rate 60D to 58 JPEGs, vs a slightly higher 65 JPEGs with the 70D.

However, 70D will fill the buffer faster because it's frame rate is increased from 5.3 fps to 7 fps. (For comparison, 7D has up to 8 fps rate, 25 RAW files or 130 JPEGs, with UDMA 7 card and firmware 2.0.x. Note: frame rates slow in some circumstances, for example to allow time for metering.)

70D has built-in WiFi. It also is compatible with the GPS module, if that's important. And the 70D's LCD is a "touch screen". Though rated the same 1 million pixels and 3" diagonal size as the 60D's, it might be slightly brighter due to the "air gapless" design needed for the touch screen function.

In a nutshell.... for a video shooter or heavy Live View user, the upgrade makes a lot of sense thanks to the new Dual Pixel CMOS focusing system offered by the 70D. Anyone else will probably need to find several of the more incremental improvements important to their usage, to really justify the upgrade.

Live view user.... Over here!!!!

That's all I use

reefvilla wrote in post #16571888
Live view user.... Over here!!!!

That's all I use

Then you got the work cut out for you!...

I'd like to add something regarding the MFA. I really struggled when choosing the 60D because Canon abandoned the MFA... In the end I bit the bullet and bought it.

Every time I bought a new lens I was in pins and needles whether it would front/back focus and tested them thoroughly with proper targets, not the 'battery test'.

Turns out none of them needed them!...

The 5DIII confirmed that none of them needs it (with the increased sharpness and shallower DOF, you can place the AF on a specific breadcrumb on a plate and have it light up in the 100% crop )...

So, if your existing lenses are Ok, it's a nice to have. If you buy new lenses and prove that they are FF/BF, send them to Canon for calibration (the old fashioned way).

I went through the same logic and kept my 60D.

MakisM1 wrote in post #16572013
Then you got the work cut out for you!...

I'd like to add something regarding the MFA. I really struggled when choosing the 60D because Canon abandoned the MFA... In the end I bit the bullet and bought it.

Every time I bought a new lens I was in pins and needles whether it would front/back focus and tested them thoroughly with proper targets, not the 'battery test'.

Turns out none of them needed them!...

The 5DIII confirmed that none of them needs it (with the increased sharpness and shallower DOF, you can place the AF on a specific breadcrumb on a plate and have it light up in the 100% crop )...

So, if your existing lenses are Ok, it's a nice to have. If you buy new lenses and prove that they are FF/BF, send them to Canon for calibration (the old fashioned way).

I went through the same logic and kept my 60D.

I think I will keep mine as well. I have a credit at B&H and then I received an email with a little off the 70D so my arm was getting twisted.

amfoto1 wrote in post #16571878
Better AF system is true.... It's similar to the 7D's, more sophisticated and more user configurable for different situations. Additional AF points (19 vs 9). Peripheral points (all those other than the center) that are a bit more usable. A "center point only" shooter won't see much difference, but anyone else will have more choices and find the outer points somewhat more usable.

The 70D's 19-point AF is a slightly scaled down version of the 7D's. The 70D lacks two of the AF point selection modes that the 7D offers: Expansion Points and Spot Focus. Otherwise, functionality is about the same. Both cameras offer All Points, Single Point and Zone Focus.

The 7D also has a discrete chip running the AF system (1D series style)... 60D and, AFAIK, 70D don't. he 70D uses a newer generation and more powerful Digic 5 processor, though, which might largely negate any differences this might make. (7D uses dual Digic 4 processors to support it's slightly higher frame rate.)

But Canon rates the 70D's AF system low light capabilities nearly the same as the 60D's. In bright light, the 60D's is actually rated to be more usable than the 70D's. Canon's ratings.... 60D: 0EV to 20EV. 70D -0.5EV to 18EV. (In comparison: 7D is rated same as 70D, while one of the best, 5D Mark III is rated -2EV to 18EV.) In use it may be a bit better handling low light than rated (I know the 5DII's is better than it's rated, while the 7D's is pretty much exactly as stated). Still, it's only a half EV difference, so don't expect a big difference in low light. Two full EV difference in bright light might be more significant, depending upon what situations you more commonly shoot.

20MP vs 18MP is pretty much a yawner.

Slightly better high ISO and noise handling seems to be true. Emphasis on "slightly", though. 70D does go a bit higher on the ISO scale, to 25600 (compared with 12800).... you'll have to be the judge whether it's usable, though.

Bigger VF? The 70D has a 98%, X.95 magnification, 22mm eye relief VF. 60D has a 96%, X.95 mag, 22mm VF. Personally I'd call that a pretty mild improvement.

70D gets the same active matrix/transmissive LCD screen as 7D (and 5DIII, 1DX, though those cams use it with a different AF system). This takes a bit of getting used to, but is neat once you feel comfortable with it. It does make the VF slightly less bright, though. And focus screens technically aren't interchangeable (so using manual focus lenses might be more difficult... or expensive/limiting if a third party focus screen is fitted).

The active matrix/transmissive LCD screen offers a couple more neat little features. One is grid on demand. You can add a grid at the push of a button, rather than having to change out the focus screen. It also allows an electronic level to be displayed in the viewfinder. (Both these also can be displayed on the rear LCD monitor. In fact there are more grid options on the rear monitor, than in the viewfinder of the 70D). These can be handy features for architectural photography, among other things.

Definitely Micro Focus Adjust 2.0 is a big improvement. In fact 60D didn't have any form of MFA at all (even though it's predecessor the 50D did), so any form of it provided would be an improvement. But in fact the 70D's is better than version 1.0 on 7D. If you use MFA, yes it might be worth the upgrade. Not everyone bothers with it. Still, better to have it, just in case it's needed with your particular lenses (and you don't feel like sending them in for calibration).

The new focusing system in Live View and video is a true game changer... if you shoot Live View and/or video frequently. The Dual Pixel CMOS isn't new, other manufacturers have used something like it in some cameras for a few years. However, Canon's implementation of it on the 70D appears to be far and away the most sophisticated use of the technology yet done by any manufacturer. Canon claims it's possible to focus anywhere withint 80% of the image area, while many other manufacturers limit their Dual Pixel focusing to just a few select points within the image area.

One limitation is that the Dual Pixel CMOS cannot track movement for continuous shooting (i.e., viewfinder/AI Servo style). It's main claim to fame is speed that rivals that of One Shot using the viewfinder. That's a big improvement over the ploddingly slow Live View focus of previous models.

I haven't seen any info about increased sealing or more metal clad body than the 60D. AFAIK, it's built about the same as the 60D.... some plastic, but still solid feeling (i.e., plastic isn't necessarily a bad thing... it can be quite durable, done right).

Canon rates the buffers of both 60D and 70D to around 16 RAW files. They rate 60D to 58 JPEGs, vs a slightly higher 65 JPEGs with the 70D.

However, 70D will fill the buffer faster because it's frame rate is increased from 5.3 fps to 7 fps. (For comparison, 7D has up to 8 fps rate, 25 RAW files or 130 JPEGs, with UDMA 7 card and firmware 2.0.x. Note: frame rates slow in some circumstances, for example to allow time for metering.)

70D has built-in WiFi. It also is compatible with the GPS module, if that's important. And the 70D's LCD is a "touch screen". Though rated the same 1 million pixels and 3" diagonal size as the 60D's, it might be slightly brighter due to the "air gapless" design needed for the touch screen function.

In a nutshell.... for a video shooter or heavy Live View user, the upgrade makes a lot of sense thanks to the new Dual Pixel CMOS focusing system offered by the 70D. Anyone else will probably need to find several of the more incremental improvements important to their usage, to really justify the upgrade.

Very well written.

I tested two cameras, i came to shop for 7D (for sports) or 6D (for lowlight performance) and left with 70D. Why? Because 70D is unbelievably flexible camera.

But....


what 7D has and i miss it :

-AF system is same as 70D except two modes. I miss specifically Expansion Points mode, very cool feature, hope they add this in future 70D firmware updates. but AF zone is sufficient for tracking fast moving object too.

- Even faster burst rate (8FPS vs 7FPS)

- Joystick and somehow better feel on back wheel, but i get used to 70D layout quickly.

- Build quality for heavy use

-slightly bigger VF.

But that´s it. Really. IMHO In everything else 70D is same or better. It has to be, the technology advances and although 7D is very capable, it is getting old.

I'm in a somewhat similar boat. I have a 7D and 60D (through progression of 50D, 50D+60D, then 7D+60D) and the 60 is basically the 2nd body, for when I have to use two FL ranges at the same time ... which hasn't been for a while as I no longer work next to an airport for plane spotting lol.

When I go out with my casual birding, obviously the 7D gets the nod for AF and burst. I don't "mind" 5fps on the 60D, 6fps on the 50D was ok, but the slow SD card flushing on the 60D really killed it. However there are many times, like yesterday, where I really would've liked the flippy screen to shoot low angle water bird shots ... but it really takes the casual enjoyment out of it when I have to carry two bodies. And the 70D LV AF would really help there too, like no "AF Quick" black outs, etc.
The 70D SD card slot is actually decent here in clearing the buffer:
http://www.imaging-resource.com …canon-70d/canon-70dA6.HTM

I'm getting tempted to consolidate my 7D and 60D into a single 70D and just chance it with the times I need dual body (the EOS-M doesn't count lol) or the significantly larger 7D buffer.

MakisM1 wrote in post #16572013
Then you got the work cut out for you!...

I'd like to add something regarding the MFA. I really struggled when choosing the 60D because Canon abandoned the MFA... In the end I bit the bullet and bought it.

Every time I bought a new lens I was in pins and needles whether it would front/back focus and tested them thoroughly with proper targets, not the 'battery test'.

Turns out none of them needed them!...

That isn't the standard for the 60D however, in others' cases, they wish they had MFA. I just think your lenses and your 60D had tolerances that canceled each other out.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16572963
That isn't the standard for the 60D however, in others' cases, they wish they had MFA. I just think your lenses and your 60D had tolerances that canceled each other out.

And then the 60D and the 5D3 had the same tolerances so the same lenses work the same way?

In the two years I've been in the forum, I've seen very few complains of 60D owners about front/back focusing. Made me wonder whether Canon silently piloted some algorithm that did focus adjustment and didn't say anything about it. Who knows...

Anyway, I am not complaining