Smoke coming out of my ears! Someone talk me into ETTL with 2 flashes

Wow. I just watched the Blue Crane video on using a Canon 580EX and 430EX and my mind is blown. I'm trying to decide whether to watch it a few more times or just go manual, which I'm comfortable with. Who uses ETTL with two Canon Speedlites, and why? It's cool technology, but I think trading stock option strategies is easier to explain or understand!

When the instructor gets into Group A:B:C and talking about doing exposure control adjustments in the camera for ambient and controlling the speedlite ratios from the 580EX, and moving it off camera with that short Canon cord, I found myself thinking, "Yikes, David Hobby's stuff at strobist is much more comprehensible than this stuff!"

I have a couple of Alien Bees, and I always use those with the camera on manual using the histogram and chimping till I get what I want, walking between the two bees to adjust power settings, and it's easy and I don't mind the few steps between units.

With what that guy was doing I'm not sure I could master it all, although it seemed to work well for him. I just picked up a used 430EX rather than a used LumoPro LP160 because I know I can use both the 580EX and the 430EX on manual, but I could at least play with the ETTL and the features on the speedlites if I wanted to. Now I'm trying to figure out why I'd want to.

Do some of you use two Canon ETTL speedlites (or other brands compatible with ETTL) and find it workable? And if so, is there a longer cable than that Canon coiled thing that will work with ETTL?

Maybe it's because I'm old and learned in a manual world, but I find the stuff on Strobist.com much easier to comprehend. And I think I'd be less error prone walking between units and adjusting manual power settings. But I am reasonably bright, and I might watch that video four or five more times if some of you convince me it's worth doing.

When my used 430EX arrives it will be the first time I've had the opportunity to work with more than one speedlite. Since I'm already used to working with more than one Alien Bee in manual, I'm thinking maybe it is not worth taking the time and trouble (and toll in brain cells) to try to learn ETTL. But I figured I'd ask if some of you think it is worth the trouble to learn it before throwing in the towel, since I'll now have two good Canon speedlites.

By the way, I've had good results with ETTL using the 580EX on the camera shoe using bounce and flash exposure compensation from time to time, for casual shooting. And I don't think about it much. But when I'm doing a carefully constructed shot, I'm trying to figure out why I'd want to go with ETTL, except the guy in the video seemed so enamoured with it.

Well, i just found my answer to a longer ETTL cord, this looks much better.

http://ocfgear.com/com​pared/

My head still hurt from that video, though. Ouch!


Edit And I'm finding some older posts like this that should help me.

https://photography-on-the.net …ight=ETTL+multi​ple&page=2

I will take advantage of the learning resources here using search. I'm not looking for more explanation, I have that. I'm more looking for "is it worth it to learn" thoughts. Maybe it's old dog new tricks, but my first impulse is manual is easier (for me) but I would like to take advantage of what my two flashes have to offer.

OP signed in on 2005 and post this thread on 2014,
for several years, he must have been kidnapped by an alien and miss all the fun in here

JohnCollins wrote in post #16603699
But when I'm doing a carefully constructed shot,

I think this is where you might be having a problem.

IMO, ETTL is best used when lighting is constantly changing and there is not time to adjust settings. When th opposite is true, why not use manual settings?

tongki wrote in post #16603790
OP signed in on 2005 and post this thread on 2014,
for several years, he must have been kidnapped by an alien and miss all the fun in here

Yep. True. I kind of drifted away after a couple years because I had zero time for photography. I've missed a lot since about mid-2007 I think. I even had trouble getting back on here because I changed email addresses.

Like I said, I'm finding all the resources I need here to learn about this stuff, I don't need any explanations, it's all been done here before, I'm just catching up.

After watching that video, with the guy saying ... twice ... "Well, manual flash is a hassle, and prone to error." I thought to myself, "Is he nuts? With all that A:B:C stuff, controlling ratios from the master, trying to make the camera go a different way that ETTL wants to on what is the main light ... heck, that's the hassle and prone to error process, for me!"

I'm going to watch it a couple more times, and go through the manuals several times simply because I'm a little OCD. I now have to master this stuff before I walk away from it. But I think I'll be using ETTL for candid shots. At the point I introduce a second speedlight I'll consider that a carefully set-up shot and just chimp my way to what I want on manual.

Like I said, the info is here for me, I'm not looking for instruction. I'm just amazed that anyone would think trying to ride the ETTL bull with 2 or even 3 speedlights is easier than manual control all the way. I'm just wondering what the split is around here between folks who love the ETTL in multi-light situations and those who prefer manual.

I'll go back at it some more, I kinda like the punishment.

hes gone wrote in post #16604069
=he's gone;16604069]I think this is where you might be having a problem.

IMO, ETTL is best used when lighting is constantly changing and there is not time to adjust settings. When th opposite is true, why not use manual settings?

'Zackly!

Pick up the Speedliters Handbook... Syl Arena explains ETTL better than anyone I know of.

http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=5byuHJ9uBns

This video (which I haven't watched in its entirety) is specific to the latest Speedlite models (which have RF transceivers built-in): http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=KpxTjmlEsm8

Ive been considering that. He has a great rep. I'm going to work with it some more and dig into the manual first though. I want to know I want to move toward ETTL, not away from it before plonking down for Syl's book.

Probably, the smoke coming out my ears was it was my first time through that video. I can work well in manual, probably because of my age and the way I started out as a kid, as well as working with the bees. If I can digest what that guy is saying, I think he's just figuring out the exposure then pushing the camera one way for the ambient and the flashes another for the effect he wants, sorta like manual but with the camera in the middle. I can probably get facile with that.

My question is this; is it a big advantage over ETTL for two light setups, that's where I really need some convincing. Because manual is not all that complicated to me. Seems like the ETTL is, but it could very well be because I'm new to it.

I do like ETTL for one flash, walking around snapshots. Snagged this of my niece the other day with the 580EX on the camera, wide angle fresnel deployed, pointed at the ceiling behind me. All auto. Can't argue with it for this kind of use at all! They engineered some good stuff!

Is it that you do not understand ETTL or is it that you do not understand ratios? ETTL works the same whether using a single Speedlite or multiple Speedlites.

The blue crane videos make sense, if you know the material, but as teaching tools they are crap. You mentioned getting a long ETTL cord, but given the costs of wireless ETTL triggers these days you might be better off with a wireless radio trigger system like the YN622c. As mentioned above ETTL is not the best for studio work, where you value repeated results more than flexibility.

agv8or wrote in post #16605313
Is it that you do not understand ETTL or is it that you do not understand ratios?

I understand ratios, I can light fine. I just do it manually, adjusting power of the lights till I get the ratio I want. I think it's just that the ETTL process for getting the result you want is not as intuitive to me as manual. It may become more so if I go over it a few more times that's all.

I guess the reason I posted is that after watching the Blue Crane video (which is good, by the way, if you have the older EX and not EX-II flash units), I came away from the whole exercise as thinking the ETTL with two speedlites is a solution in search of a problem. And the guy's comment about manual "being a hassle and error prone" was humorous to me. Clearly, for me, the ETTL process is a hassle and error prone. I was not kidding when I said it is easier to understand stock option strategies than this ETTL with two lights process.

I always planned to go manual when using two lights, but I got the 430EX because the price was right, it mates well with my 580EX, both can do manual, and I thought, "What the heck I can play with ETTL, too!"

I'm not knocking ETTL, mind you, I've used it a lot with one light. I'm just trying to figure out if it is worth the hassle of trying to learn it for two lights. For me. Make sense? Maybe I shouldn't have posted this, I don't know. But ETTL is great for stuff like that shot above. I do think it might be a solution in search of a problem with more than one light. But that could also just be my ignorance of it.

I'll work through it.

Canon two light ETTL control is driven by FEC. That's how ratios work and the light on camera is always in group A. Its not rocket science but one does have to firmly grasp and accept Canon's terminology and methodology.

I presume that getting the long cable was so you could use both lights off camera. If so, put the light attached to the camera via the cable on the left A side of the camera and the other light on the right B side of the camera. Ideally, you can place them 180 degrees apart from one another with a three dimensional subject half way between them.

Now work with the ratio feature to see how it impacts the light on the subject. That should help you clarify how it works.

As mentioned, three YN-622 triggers would be much more useful than the long cable.

How I use ETTL with two speedlites:

1. Choose a ratio to create the lighting pattern I want (1:2 for low contrast, 1:4 for medium contrast, 1:8 for high contrast)
2. Set ambient according to how bright I want it (usually using the camera's autoexposure system)
3. Adjust EC and FEC to compensate for AFR (I hate this!!) and NEVEC and the shortcomings of Canon's metering algorithm.

With the newer bodies, this process is quick and accurate.

IMO ETTL is great for when you "run & gun" and/or simply do not have time to determine what ratio's will give the results you are after.

Beyond that manual will always be the best way to get consistent results when shooting conditions are static. We don't shoot in "auto/green" mode for the same reason that you should not rely on ETTL. Both are nice when the situation demands that you capture the moment; taking the extra time to expose properly however will always trump how the camera thinks you want the scene to look.

Rocky Rhode wrote in post #16605673
IMO ETTL is great for when you "run & gun" and/or simply do not have time to determine what ratio's will give the results you are after.

Beyond that manual will always be the best way to get consistent results when shooting conditions are static. We don't shoot in "auto/green" mode for the same reason that you should not rely on ETTL. Both are nice when the situation demands that you capture the moment; taking the extra time to expose properly however will always trump how the camera thinks you want the scene to look.

Bingo! My thoughts exactly.