Sony troubles..

Shadowblade wrote in post #16700745
They totally lack any kind of innovation or any sense of aesthetics - both very important in high-end goods.

Looking at what they produce, they're very good at taking what already exists and manufacturing it on a huge scale, sometimes with some minor tweaks, e.g. making it cheaper or simpler to produce, or a minor performance improvement. The resulting product performs to specification - and that's just about all you can say. It does the job. It tends to be completely utilitarian, with no sense of aesthetics or design (obviously not particularly applicable to cameras, but very applicable in things like home appliances and cars). Alternatively, it's something designed on an aesthetic level by someone from outside China, then mass-produced there.

But when was the last time you saw an innovative new Chinese product - a Chinese iPhone, 5D2 or Model T Ford? Not in the past hundred years - it's always someone else's idea, copied and manufactured on a huge scale. When did you last see a product desirable for its style as well as function, that was both designed and produced in China, by Chinese-trained and educated people - a Chinese Maserati, IWC or Burberry? From what I see - and I've dealt with a lot of Chinese-trained staff - the education system there doesn't lend itself to innovation or aesthetics, merely to speed, efficiency and economy in carrying out someone else's idea. The engineers and web designers trained there are very quick and very efficient into putting someone else's design together and getting it working. But put them to work in designing something original, or even coming up with an original concept, and the results are, almost invariably, poor. And it's going to take a lot more than a burgeoning middle class to change that.

I agree with almost all that Shadowblade has written above (I worked in China and Asia for years) except to say that I think the Chinese will keep copying things for a while yet before they will innovate. I'd give them another 10 years then they will surprise us. IMO, they are still getting over the ideology of the communist years and are building infrastructure.

Cuttlefish wrote in post #16701771
I agree with almost all that Shadowblade has written above (I worked in China and Asia for years) except to say that I think the Chinese will keep copying things for a while yet before they will innovate. I'd give them another 10 years then they will surprise us. IMO, they are still getting over the ideology of the communist years and are building infrastructure.

I think it will take a new generation to come through - a generation taught to think and create rather than rote-learn and parrot the 'correct' answers.

We're talking about an education system that, even in the early 2000s (not sure whether anything's changed now), had 'correct' answers for things like literature studies, history (the 'why things happened' part, not just the 'what happened' and the lists of dates part) and even fine arts (there was a 'correct' thing/way to paint or photograph, and everything else was wrong). People I've seen come out of that system tend to be very good at giving out the official line, very good at remembering everything in the manual and very good at low-level 'grunt-work' in any organisation, but very poor when they move up in an organisation and need to come up with ideas, strategy and creative ways of doing things, or when they come across a situation or problem that's not in the manual or not a scenario they had directly been trained for. In other words, not a system conducive to producing people with new ideas.

I agree again Shadowblade

The current inventive people often work in western companies or do post-doctorate work at western universities. Which is historically a result of the economic infrastructure in China. But that will quickly change since China now do have the risk capitalist infrastructure needed to make use of these people locally.

pwm2 wrote in post #16705862
The current inventive people often work in western companies or do post-doctorate work at western universities. Which is historically a result of the economic infrastructure in China. But that will quickly change since China now do have the risk capitalist infrastructure needed to make use of these people locally.

From what I've seen (in Australia and Canada at least) is that these people, although they may refer to themselves as 'Chinese', are actually usually from Taiwan, or Singapore, or Malaysia, or Hong Kong, i.e. not educated and trained in the People's Republic of China, and with no connection, other than cultural/ancestral, to that country.

Shadowblade wrote in post #16705964
From what I've seen (in Australia and Canada at least) is that these people, although they may refer to themselves as 'Chinese', are actually usually from Taiwan, or Singapore, or Malaysia, or Hong Kong, i.e. not educated and trained in the People's Republic of China, and with no connection, other than cultural/ancestral, to that country.

Not the ones I'm thinking about. Way inland China.

Shadowblade wrote in post #16691321
the Chinese couldn't make a good lens if they tried.

some day they will try ..... and might succeed

watt100 wrote in post #16708414
some day they will try ..... and might succeed

It isn't exactly high-tech factories involved for the Samyang lenses - and they still seem to manage to produce very nice lenses.

What level of equipment did people have when all 50 and 100 year old lenses where designed and manufactured?

Any company that gets an investor who puts in the required money will manage to design and produce nice lenses. In the end, it's all about getting enough money and focus to manage to get out good lenses. The big stumbling stone is that a company like Canon doesn't tell how their electronic communication works. But that is irrelevant to a company that might decide to not only do their own lenses but maybe also their own cameras.