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Thread started 28 Jan 2014 (Tuesday) 05:48
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ND/IR Filters

 
MPJ
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Jan 28, 2014 05:48 |  #1

Hi

I am looking at getting some (Hi-Tech) ND (non-grad) filters for long exposures (1 sec and more). The retailer I approached recommended I use a ND/IR filter to mitigate the effect of long exposures letting IR radiation affect the sensor. So, I see this is down to a combination of what camera-sensor (I have a Canon 5d & 40d) & how long the exposure actually is. So does anyone have any experience of how long an exposure has to be before it's necessary to consider getting an ND/IR filter (a LOT more expensive than standard ND)

thx

MPJ




  
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hollis_f
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Jan 28, 2014 06:39 |  #2

MPJ wrote in post #16643481 (external link)
The retailer I approached recommended I use a ND/IR filter to mitigate the effect of long exposures letting IR radiation affect the sensor.

Did the retailer happen to mention what these effects were? Or was he too busy drooling at the thought of the profits to be made by selling one?


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MalVeauX
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Jan 28, 2014 09:38 |  #3

MPJ wrote in post #16643481 (external link)
Hi

I am looking at getting some (Hi-Tech) ND (non-grad) filters for long exposures (1 sec and more). The retailer I approached recommended I use a ND/IR filter to mitigate the effect of long exposures letting IR radiation affect the sensor. So, I see this is down to a combination of what camera-sensor (I have a Canon 5d & 40d) & how long the exposure actually is. So does anyone have any experience of how long an exposure has to be before it's necessary to consider getting an ND/IR filter (a LOT more expensive than standard ND)

thx

MPJ

Heya,

1 second exposure times are not that long really. In broad daylight, this is very hard to do without filters. But in the shade, you can simply stop down to F22 or so, and do a 1 second exposure probably without an issue (like for shaded rivers/water falls). The same applies if you're doing near dark dawn/dusk shots of water like the beach, lakes, etc. You don't need filters for 1 second exposures in the low light situations.

If you want to do long exposure in broad day light, then you need serious filters. I've used a 3 stop and 6 stop in broad day light and it's still very bright. In broad day light stopped down to F22, even at 3 stops, you're looking at about 1~2 seconds. A touch more at 6 stops. I would get a 10 stop filter right out of the gate, if you want long exposure shots in broad day light. If you're in the shade, or low light, you don't need 10 stop, and you likely can do it without a filter.

That said, I use hitech filters and I like how it works. I use a 3 stop a lot and a 3 stop GND soft edge for a lot of scenes like sun sets at the beach and stuff. I like long exposure. I'm waiting for my 10 stop to arrive, because one thing I've learned about ND filters is that if you like using them, you'll always want to try longer and longer exposures and a 10 stop is the only way to really achieve that in bright light.

Very best,


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joeseph
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Jan 28, 2014 11:56 |  #4

both 5D & 40D have very effective IR filters already, best ignore the saleman BS...


some fairly old canon camera stuff, canon lenses, Manfrotto "thingy", and an M5, also an M6 that has had a 720nm filter bolted onto the sensor:
TF posting: here :-)

  
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John ­ from ­ PA
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Jan 28, 2014 14:54 |  #5

joeseph wrote in post #16644344 (external link)
both 5D & 40D have very effective IR filters already, best ignore the saleman BS...

Maybe it isn't BS...I'm not into long exposure ND photography but at http://www.manfrottosc​hoolofxcellence.com …-nd-filters/#.UugWUX1OnMI (external link) it is stated...

Color distortion. Earlier I mentioned that ND filters shouldn’t cause color shifts, and that’s generally true for weaker strengths. But from a density of 1.8 and beyond, you might notice a slightly warmer tone to your color images. A UV-IR-Blocking filter in front of the ND filter will reduce that effect.

In addition high end filters like the Lee "Big Stopper" are described as already incorporating enhanced IR filtration for use in digital photography.




  
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hollis_f
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Jan 28, 2014 16:19 |  #6

John from PA wrote in post #16644866 (external link)
Maybe it isn't BS...I'm not into long exposure ND photography but at http://www.manfrottosc​hoolofxcellence.com …-nd-filters/#.UugWUX1OnMI (external link) it is stated...

Yes, I've read several people state that colour casts in high-density ND filters is due to them letting IR through. But my testing doesn't back that up.

I have three 10-Stop ND filters. All of them are much less than 10-Stops when they are stuck on my IR-adapted 20D, around 4 to 6 stops. As they let in so much IR received wisdom has it that they should all have a similar colour cast.

The Heliopan produces a pronounced warm cast.
The Hitech (non-IR) produces a pronounced cool cast.
The Marumi produces virtually no colour cast at all.


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dodgyexposure
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Jan 28, 2014 17:16 |  #7

Frank, thanks for your comments. This thread is timely for me, as I'm currently looking at ND filters.

Is the only issue that IR is supposed to correct colour cast?

More importantly, is the colour cast easily corrected in post?


Cheers, Damien

  
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Jim_T
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Jan 28, 2014 17:23 |  #8

hollis_f wrote in post #16645078 (external link)
The Heliopan produces a pronounced warm cast.
The Hitech (non-IR) produces a pronounced cool cast.
The Marumi produces virtually no colour cast at all.

I have a Hoya ND8... It has a very slight green cast.. It's correctable in post with a quick white balance tweak..




  
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hollis_f
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Jan 28, 2014 17:44 |  #9

dodgyexposure wrote in post #16645219 (external link)
Is the only issue that IR is supposed to correct colour cast?

One problem which I assume is caused by IR is that you can't use the camera's metering system. For example, a meter reading without a filter may give a shutter speed of 1/500s. With a 10-stopper you'd have to go to manual exposure and set the shutter speed at 2s. But if you try using the camera's metering system it will suggest a shutter speed of around 0.2s which would result in a grossly underexposed image.

My guess is that the IR filter for the metering sensor isn't very efficient.

dodgyexposure wrote in post #16645219 (external link)
More importantly, is the colour cast easily corrected in post?

As long as you're using a semi-decent filter (I.e., not a chuck of welding glass or a cheap and) then any colour cast is easily fixed.


Frank Hollis - Retired mass spectroscopist
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Snydremark
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Jan 28, 2014 17:54 |  #10

I've shot to 3min, near dusk, with a normal, 3 stop ND. I believe the salesperson is about as smart as the one that told me that a faster CF card, and I quote, "will make your photos look better".

Frank's got you on the right track, I think


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MPJ
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Jan 29, 2014 02:28 as a reply to  @ Snydremark's post |  #11

Thx all for your input - as I recall, the retailer said something about incorrect exposures and shadow areas blocking up or getting a colour cast, but didn't explain why, then the conversation moved on. Based on your replies, IR may well be overkill - a slight colour cast is easily correctable. It's a lot about shooting moving water around sunrise/set, with at least 1 sec, often up to 10 or 15 or more, depending on aperture (brain will be in speed priority mode). Not sure yet whether I'll be going to 1.8+ density, which is where the manfrotto reference start to talk about IR. IR is 4x the price, so I might start with the standard & see how I go . . .




  
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MalVeauX
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Jan 29, 2014 03:41 |  #12

MPJ wrote in post #16646215 (external link)
Thx all for your input - as I recall, the retailer said something about incorrect exposures and shadow areas blocking up or getting a colour cast, but didn't explain why, then the conversation moved on. Based on your replies, IR may well be overkill - a slight colour cast is easily correctable. It's a lot about shooting moving water around sunrise/set, with at least 1 sec, often up to 10 or 15 or more, depending on aperture (brain will be in speed priority mode). Not sure yet whether I'll be going to 1.8+ density, which is where the manfrotto reference start to talk about IR. IR is 4x the price, so I might start with the standard & see how I go . . .

Heya,

I would get 3 stop filters. Or a big 10 stop filter. You can stack filters. So if you get two 3 stop filters, you can stack for 6 stops.

I say this because you're saying 15 seconds for exposure. At dawn/dusk, you can do this with a stopped down aperture and a single 3 stop filter, depending on light of course. But as it brightens up, that 15 second exposure will start to go down as light comes up. I would just go ahead and get a 10 stop filter and a 3 stop filter. That way you can play with long exposure and not just get a taste and wish you had more while you're out there. You can always re-sell the 10 stop if you don't use it. They are high demand.

Very best,


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MPJ
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Jan 29, 2014 03:50 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #13

thx for that - I'm looking at Hi-tech Neutral Density THREE Filter Kit - (ND 0.3, 0.6, 0.9), plus maybe the 10-stop, that will help with clouds for daylight photos once the sun's up




  
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hollis_f
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Jan 29, 2014 04:10 |  #14

MalVeauX wrote in post #16646267 (external link)
Heya,

I would get 3 stop filters. Or a big 10 stop filter. You can stack filters. So if you get two 3 stop filters, you can stack for 6 stops.

Better yet, get a 3-stop and a 6-stop which you could stack for 9-stops.


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MalVeauX
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Jan 29, 2014 05:13 |  #15

MPJ wrote in post #16646274 (external link)
thx for that - I'm looking at Hi-tech Neutral Density THREE Filter Kit - (ND 0.3, 0.6, 0.9), plus maybe the 10-stop, that will help with clouds for daylight photos once the sun's up

Don't bother with the kit. The 0.3 is 1 stop. The 0.6 is 2 stops. The only stopper you'll bother using after you use them is the 3 stop. The filter has to have serious impact for it to be worth while. A single stop is not enough to warrant the filter (every filter introduces at least something to the quality of the image). Sure you could stack them, but stacking also introduces quality loss potential (and stacked, that kit is still only stopping 6 stops of light). You're better off with a 3 stop and 6 stop, as Hollis just pointed out. You get the power of 3 stops, 6 stops, and stacked for 9 stops. This will give you the best bang for getting long exposure, without having a bunch of filters laying around that you don't use. Two filters that do it all basically. This is also cheaper, by a long shot.

Here's a great start:

Hitech 100mm x 100mm 6 Stop ND (external link)
Hitech 100mm x 100mm 3 Stop ND (external link)
Hitech 100mm x 100+mm Filter Holder (external link)

That's $160 for those, new. All you need after that is the appropriate filter size.
Here's some quick links for two common sizes for most people:
77mm Wide Angle Adapter Ring (external link)
67mm Wide Angle Adapter Ring (external link)

Very best,


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