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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 14 Feb 2014 (Friday) 08:27
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Is 70 the crop body which has highest image quality?

 
5D3ismydream
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Feb 14, 2014 08:27 |  #1
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I'm so surprise when check the image quality chart of 70D from the-digital-picture.com , not much worse than full-frame bodies
http://www.the-digital-picture.com …omp=0&FLIComp=0​&APIComp=3 (external link)




  
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MakisM1
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Feb 14, 2014 08:55 |  #2

Normally, a crop has an advantage at the edges because... it is a crop! It doesn't go as far out as a FF.

On the other hand, the FF will be sharper (more line pairs in the frame).

So, if you use a mediocre lens with medium sharpness in the center which deteriorates towards the edges, the crop will be sharper at its edges and the FF will be sharper in the center. When you use a very sharp lens, then the differences are very difficult to detect. This is the case here.


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Feb 14, 2014 10:00 |  #3

Be careful of not falling into the trap of hyperbole about 35mm digital sensors vs. APS-C sized sensors.

Both types have advantages and disadvantages. For the type of shooting I do, I prefer 35mm digital over APS-C. However, it's obvious that's not going to be the case for everyone.

Here is a good resource about digital sensor sizes.

http://www.cambridgein​colour.com …al-camera-sensor-size.htm (external link)


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BrickR
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Feb 14, 2014 11:34 |  #4

If you are controlling the light, or shooting in good light, the difference in IQ isn't as apparent. Some people will think that there is a huge difference in IQ, but at low ISO with the same lenses, it isn't very apparent, especially if your images are bound for the web. The higher ISO is when FF has increasing advantages. ISO 6400 from a 6d is going to be NOTICEABLY better than 6400 from a 70d. Heck, 3200 will be noticeably better.


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Wilt
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Feb 14, 2014 15:50 |  #5

MakisM1 wrote in post #16688785 (external link)
Normally, a crop has an advantage at the edges because... it is a crop! It doesn't go as far out as a FF.

On the other hand, the FF will be sharper (more line pairs in the frame).

So, if you use a mediocre lens with medium sharpness in the center which deteriorates towards the edges, the crop will be sharper at its edges and the FF will be sharper in the center. When you use a very sharp lens, then the differences are very difficult to detect. This is the case here.

Time to disprove that old urban legend!!!

Let us assume a lens has great detail resolution of 80 line-pairs per millimeter at its center, and 64 line-pairs per millimeter at the edges...

  • With FF, we enlarge its 24x36mm frame by 8.5x to print an 8x12" print.
    So the print itself ends up with 80/8.5 = 9.4 line-pairs/millimeter at its center and 64/8.5 = 7.5 line-pairs/millimeter at its edges.
  • With APS-C, we enlarge its 14.9x22.3mm frame by 13.6x to print an 8x12" print.
    So the print itself ends up with 80/13.6 = 5.9 line-pairs/millimeter at its center and at its edges.
  • Both 9.4 and 7.5 line-pairs is greater than 5.9 line-pairs!

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Keyan
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Feb 14, 2014 20:19 |  #6

The 70D is very good for a crop. The ISO performance is not as good as a newer full frame. And it doesn't come close to the 1D X...but then again, not much does.

I am happy with my 70D, a properly exposed shot with a little PP can look like it came off of a full frame in many cases.


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EOS5DC
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Feb 14, 2014 20:46 |  #7
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For 50% the price and 98% of the IQ available in the 70D you can get a refurbished 60D. Used would be even less.

EDIT: Keyan, I agree with you. Modern crop bodies are quite useable at ISO 12,800. The only real improvement is a modern FF body.


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homersapien
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Feb 15, 2014 09:57 as a reply to  @ EOS5DC's post |  #8

To answer your question: no. There are other crop bodies with better image quality, such as the Fuji X-A1. I think the x-trans sensor also has a slight edge on Canon. The Fuji system as a whole leaves a lot to be desired though, and switching from Canon could be painful; I think I'd miss my 70-200mm too much to do it :cool:




  
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MakisM1
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Feb 15, 2014 10:21 |  #9

Wilt wrote in post #16689714 (external link)
Time to disprove that old urban legend!!!

Let us assume a lens has great detail resolution of 80 line-pairs per millimeter at its center, and 64 line-pairs per millimeter at the edges...
  • With FF, we enlarge its 24x36mm frame by 8.5x to print an 8x12" print.
    So the print itself ends up with 80/8.5 = 9.4 line-pairs/millimeter at its center and 64/8.5 = 7.5 line-pairs/millimeter at its edges.
  • With APS-C, we enlarge its 14.9x22.3mm frame by 13.6x to print an 8x12" print.
    So the print itself ends up with 80/13.6 = 5.9 line-pairs/millimeter at its center and at its edges.
  • Both 9.4 and 7.5 line-pairs is greater than 5.9 line-pairs!

Try the same thing with 80 line pairs an 40 line pairs at the edge and let me know what you think of the urban legend...;)

If you go to DPReview and check lenses which have reviews you will find out that in comparison, the sharpness in the center drops roughly by 1.6. The sharpness in the edges may be the same, but the overall coverage is sharper in the crop for a lot of the area, this is the performance of the nifty, showing what I am trying to say (from DPReview):

FF:


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Gerry
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Wilt
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Feb 15, 2014 11:34 |  #10

MakisM1 wrote in post #16691173 (external link)
Try the same thing with 80 line pairs an 40 line pairs at the edge and let me know what you think of the urban legend...;)

If you go to DPReview and check lenses which have reviews you will find out that in comparison, the sharpness in the center drops roughly by 1.6. The sharpness in the edges may be the same, but the overall coverage is sharper in the crop for a lot of the area, this is the performance of the nifty, showing what I am trying to say (from DPReview):

OK, you proved your point...with the cheapest, mass produced normal lens wide open! :D
OTOH, with the 70-200mm f/4 IS, the decline at the edges 85% of the Center at f/5.6 ...and 64 l-p at edge is 80% of 80 l-pm in Center.
And the same 50mm lens at f/2.8 edges are 75% of the center.


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joedlh
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Feb 15, 2014 11:42 |  #11

And you think that your flesh and blood human eye/brain combination will be able to discern differences that laboratory instrument can detect?

Stop reading the spec sheets and go out and take some pictures. Otherwise, when you achieve your 5D3 dream, you might be unpleasantly surprised to discover that you can't tell a difference in your images.


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MakisM1
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Feb 15, 2014 12:01 |  #12

Wilt, actually I think the most important point is to highlight that the center sharpness in the FF is approximately 1.6x the sharpness of the crop. This is just physics, but for most people it has evolved to metaphysics. This is the most important and real benefit going from the crop to the FF.

Of course I picked a popular lens that looses its sharpness fast... I was trying to highlight that I can pick my numbers too.

Obviously, for a lens like the EF 24-70 MkII which has very little loss of resolution at the edge, going to crop you encounter only loss!... Why do you think I bought the 5DIII AFTER I bought my Mark II brothers?

Anyway, it's not who is right or wrong. I think we should strive to pass on information which improves our understanding of our tools and help quench the Holy Wars... ;)

I have to admit that looking for the appropriate example, I was a bit surprised to see that the crop at the far end was almost just as bad as the FF, for a very small area at the corner. Instructive! :D


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MakisM1
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Feb 15, 2014 12:11 |  #13

joedlh wrote in post #16691315 (external link)
And you think that your flesh and blood human eye/brain combination will be able to discern differences that laboratory instrument can detect?

Stop reading the spec sheets and go out and take some pictures. Otherwise, when you achieve your 5D3 dream, you might be unpleasantly surprised to discover that you can't tell a difference in your images.

I don't know if this addressed to me, but if my human brain/eye combination could not see the difference in a six-fold drop in sharpness of the nifty between the center and the corner, I'd quit photography and pick up gardening.

Again, I don't know if this adressed to me, thank you for the admonition if it is...Trust me, I am out there shooting photos, I am semi-retired and can afford to do so!... The problem is that with the limitations in posting and the subjective nature of real life photos, you can argue things ad infinitum. That's where laboratories and carefully controlled photos come into play.


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AJSJones
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Feb 15, 2014 12:25 |  #14

MakisM1 wrote in post #16691173 (external link)
Try the same thing with 80 line pairs an 40 line pairs at the edge and let me know what you think of the urban legend...;)

If you go to DPReview and check lenses which have reviews you will find out that in comparison, the sharpness in the center drops roughly by 1.6. The sharpness in the edges may be the same, but the overall coverage is sharper in the crop for a lot of the area, this is the performance of the nifty, showing what I am trying to say (from DPReview):

That's because they express sharpness in LW per picture height, so of course a given lens will have 1.6x fewer line widths when the frame is 1/1.6x the size. (To go to the absurd conclusion, if you put the same lens on a 4x5 camera, it wouldn't cover the film but it would have about 8,000 LW/PH in the centre:D)
However, the point is accepted that by the edge of the crop frame, the performance (in lp/mm) has not dropped as far as it would on a FF, so for the part of the image circle that's captured, it's better maintained at its edges. So then we are back to how much the pixel density affects the print from the central or complete portion of the image circle when we want to discuss IQ:D


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Wilt
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Feb 15, 2014 12:41 |  #15

AJSJones wrote in post #16691424 (external link)
However, the point is accepted that by the edge of the crop frame, the performance (in lp/mm) has not dropped as far as it would on a FF, so for the part of the image circle that's captured, it's better maintained at its edges. So then we are back to how much the pixel density affects the print from the central or complete portion of the image circle when we want to discuss IQ:D

And as for the eye's ability to perceive the difference in quality, we merely need to up our print size to 16x24", and now we have

for FF: 80/16.9x = 4.7 lp/mm, and 64 /16.9 = 3.8 lp/mm
for APS-C: 80/27.3x = 2.9 lp/mm

...and the previously accepted fact that the eye readily detects <5 lp/mm as 'not so sharp'


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