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Thread started 04 Mar 2014 (Tuesday) 02:53
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Do you think Canon will respond to the Nikon D800?

 
kin2son
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Mar 05, 2014 23:16 |  #91
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David Arbogast wrote in post #16737877 (external link)
Like I've stated before part of the quandary lies in the fact that Canon developed two spectacular TS-E lenses perfectly suited for architecture and "scapes". So, to your point, you have to pick a system. All things considered I prefer the Canon system in large part on account of those excellent TS-E lenses. :)

But Canon TS-E lenses have been in the line up way before Sony/Nikon has the DR advantage, and before then no one complains about the lack of DR in any Canon sensor right?

It isn't until recently with the latest round of Sony sensor that the DR advantage exists.

So just because something better arrives, all of a sudden it makes everything from yesterday bad?

I think at the end of the day one just has to pick the right tool for his/her intended job. If you care about it enough you wouldn't mind the hassle of switching. Sometimes you just can't have it all....unless you can afford multiple systems ;)


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fogboundturtle
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Mar 05, 2014 23:18 |  #92

kin2son wrote in post #16737883 (external link)
But Canon TS-E lenses have been in the line up way before Sony/Nikon has the DR advantage, and before then no one complains about the lack of DR in any Canon sensor right?

It isn't until recently with the latest round of Sony sensor that the DR advantage exists.

So just because something better arrives, it makes everything from yesterday bad?

You have to give credit where credit is due. Nikon suffered from low mp and less than desirable ISO performance prior to D800. Good for them. I do astrophotography, Canon is almost the only choice.


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kin2son
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Mar 05, 2014 23:21 |  #93
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fogboundturtle wrote in post #16737886 (external link)
You have to give credit where credit is due. Nikon suffered from low mp and less than desirable ISO performance prior to D800. Good for them. I do astrophotography, Canon is almost the only choice.

Don't give credit to Nikon where credit isn't due :p

Nikon can't and doesn't make sensor, they are just re-badging Sony's, they are almost as sad as Pentax. :D


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fogboundturtle
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Mar 05, 2014 23:24 |  #94

kin2son wrote in post #16737888 (external link)
Don't give credit to Nikon where credit isn't due :p

Nikon can't and doesn't make sensor, they are just re-badging Sony's, they are almost as sad as Pentax. :D

They were smart enough to pick the Sony sensor. That was a good decision. We have the similar argument in the astro world : Kodak KAF 8300 vs Sony sensor. There is a point of diminishing returns.


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David ­ Arbogast
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Mar 05, 2014 23:27 |  #95

kin2son wrote in post #16737883 (external link)
But Canon TS-E lenses have been in the line up way before Sony/Nikon has the DR advantage, and before then no one complains about the lack of DR in any Canon sensor right?

It isn't until recently with the latest round of Sony sensor that the DR advantage exists.

So just because something better arrives, all of a sudden it makes everything from yesterday bad?

Wanting a newer, better, more competitive sensor doesn't make older stuff bad. Why do you have to take it to such extremes? My 5D III's sensor is very good, but why would you imagine I think it's "bad" because I wish for better IQ from an upcoming 5D IV (or whatever new model)?


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kin2son
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Mar 05, 2014 23:36 |  #96
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David Arbogast wrote in post #16737898 (external link)
Wanting a newer, better, more competitive sensor doesn't make older stuff bad. Why do you have to take it to such extremes? My 5D III's sensor is very good, but why would you imagine I think it's "bad" because I wish for better IQ from an upcoming 5D IV (or whatever new model)?

Well everyone wants better sensor....but in what way?

D800 has better DR @ base ISO and higher MP, but it has worse ISO performance.

Also because of the high MP, FPS is greatly suffered.

Personally I have minimum to no use of the extra DR at ISO100-400.

Basically one has to choose what's important for their type of photography, weight out all the pros and cons, and pick the best one for his/her job.

Again, you can't have it all, and there's always something better just around the corner ;)


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Kirth ­ Gersen
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Mar 05, 2014 23:59 as a reply to  @ post 16737772 |  #97

Soooo... as the OP I conclude (and much of this is speculation):

  • It is unlikely Canon will be putting out Cameras with high DR, high mp sensors anytime soon due to a) slightly out of date manufacturing facilities and b) a development path more focused on low noise/high ISO and video improvements.
  • If they do seek to respond to Nikon, they will probably start at the Pro level and work their way down.
  • This sounds to me like a timescale of multiple years... if ever.
  • I don't agree with comments on the lines of "vote with your wallet". I believe the market is structured such that many of us hobbyists HAVE to stay with one system or pay a big financial penalty for switching.

And that last point is the possibly the key for me. I am a hobbyist and not a professional. I don't get paid for extremely highly detailed work which will be printed on something big. I do crave IQ, but probably need to step back my expectations, and wait patiently.

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brettjrob
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Mar 06, 2014 00:17 |  #98

Kirth Gersen wrote in post #16737935 (external link)
Soooo... as the OP I conclude (and much of this is speculation):
  • It is unlikely Canon will be putting out Cameras with high DR, high mp sensors anytime soon due to a) slightly out of date manufacturing facilities and b) a development path more focused on low noise/high ISO and video improvements.
  • If they do seek to respond to Nikon, they will probably start at the Pro level and work their way down.
  • This sounds to me like a timescale of multiple years... if ever.
  • I don't agree with comments on the lines of "vote with your wallet". I believe the market is structured such that many of us hobbyists HAVE to stay with one system or pay a big financial penalty for switching.
And that last point is the possibly the key for me. I am a hobbyist and not a professional. I don't get paid for extremely highly detailed work which will be printed on something big. I do crave IQ, but probably need to step back my expectations, and wait patiently.

All very reasonable points. In your case, though, I don't see any impediment to jumping ship if you decide to go full-frame. All but one of your lenses are EF-S mount and will have to be sold (or relegated to backup use) anyway.

For Canon APS-C users who already own a lot of the glass they'll ultimately use on full-frame, I completely understand staying just to avoid the hassle and financial hit, though.


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Kirth ­ Gersen
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Mar 06, 2014 00:24 |  #99

brettjrob wrote in post #16737954 (external link)
In your case, though, I don't see any impediment to jumping ship if you decide to go full-frame. All but one of your lenses are EF-S mount and will have to be sold (or relegated to backup use) anyway.

You're right. This is actually quite an important decision point for me. It's either jump ship now (Nikon or Sony) or stay with Canon. In fact, I am holding off on getting a decent 50mm prime while I mull this over and see if the Sigma 50mm Art is worth it. What I have decided is that there will be no more EF-S purhases.


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pwm2
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Mar 06, 2014 01:11 |  #100

panicatnabisco wrote in post #16737842 (external link)
The grass is always greener

Howmany D800 vs canon threads are there already? I thought the horse has been thoroughly beaten

The horse hasn't been beaten enough until Canon release some new cameras. That's the only meaningful resolution to stop the bickering.


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pwm2
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Mar 06, 2014 01:13 |  #101

kin2son wrote in post #16737883 (external link)
So just because something better arrives, all of a sudden it makes everything from yesterday bad?

There isn't any "all of a sudden".

Try visiting 5 year old 5D2 threads about banding issues...


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pwm2
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Mar 06, 2014 01:32 |  #102

Kirth Gersen wrote in post #16737935 (external link)
Soooo... as the OP I conclude (and much of this is speculation):

  • It is unlikely Canon will be putting out Cameras with high DR, high mp sensors anytime soon due to a) slightly out of date manufacturing facilities and b) a development path more focused on low noise/high ISO and video improvements.

Nah - anything you see about video and high ISO performance from Canon is done because they can. It doesn't really tell us anything about what work Canon is doing to fix a higher DR at low ISO.

Canon does not release any information about their current work-in-progress so we will not see anything until they are ready to announce new cameras. So we have absolutely zero information about the current progress with higher DR.

  • If they do seek to respond to Nikon, they will probably start at the Pro level and work their way down.

For high resolution + high DR, they will probably start with 1D or 5D, but they would probably have to very quickly plan for higher DR for most of the product line because the same moment they start to brag about a new sensor, lots of people and lots of salesmen will point at the XXD, XXXD, XXXXD bodies and compare them with Nikon bodies when less well-read customers stands in the store ready to buy something.

  • This sounds to me like a timescale of multiple years... if ever.

It's a multi-year project. But remember that silence from Canon doesn't mean they haven't been working on this issue for quite a number of years. If ever? Of course Canon will release new sensors. There just are no reason not to, and a lot of reasons why they need to do it.

  • I don't agree with comments on the lines of "vote with your wallet". I believe the market is structured such that many of us hobbyists HAVE to stay with one system or pay a big financial penalty for switching.

"vote with your wallet" are just silly arguments from people who don't care about resolution or DR and thing it's a clever statement to not have to see this kind of threads. Tough luck - they will just have to bite the bullet and continue to live with this kind of threads until Canon delivers.

And that last point is the possibly the key for me. I am a hobbyist and not a professional. I don't get paid for extremely highly detailed work which will be printed on something big. I do crave IQ, but probably need to step back my expectations, and wait patiently.

You are not alone - lots of people have no real economical choice but to dig in and wait.


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Mar 06, 2014 05:40 |  #103

I would love a Nikon D800 + the Nikkor/Nikon 80-400 lens for air show use, I'm very very tempted to buy that set up and run it along side my Canon equipment. It would be my second body so it's no biggy.... Decisions.


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Mar 06, 2014 06:01 |  #104

Kirth Gersen wrote in post #16737935 (external link)
Soooo... as the OP I conclude (and much of this is speculation):
  • It is unlikely Canon will be putting out Cameras with high DR, high mp sensors anytime soon due to a) slightly out of date manufacturing facilities and b) a development path more focused on low noise/high ISO and video improvements.

I'm not sure I would classify the 150nm wafer process as slightly out of date. It is quite old being popular about the time the Pentium was first introduced in the mid-1990s (maybe as early as 1993?) In technology terms i would classify it a Jurassic.


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kin2son
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Mar 06, 2014 06:42 |  #105
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Radders wrote in post #16738237 (external link)
I would love a Nikon D800 + the Nikkor/Nikon 80-400 lens for air show use, I'm very very tempted to buy that set up and run it along side my Canon equipment. It would be my second body so it's no biggy.... Decisions.

That's a terrible setup for airshow.


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