Well crap I did it.... bye bye 6D... hello 5D3!

David Arbogast wrote in post #16767197
Ouch the logic (unless it's just a joke post). One could conceivably travel around the world in a bicycle as in your avatar. But the existence of someone doing that does little to prove that a bike is on the same level of a car, train, or airplane as an ideal form of transport.

Can a 6D capture a BIF? Of course it can. But, the efficiency/speed of achieving focus, not the ability of ever achieving focus, is perhaps a differentiator.

I am not, however, contending that the 6D is not as good as the 5D III for BIF - I simply don't know that and defer to experts like Gabe and other skilled BIF shooters for that. I'm only protesting the suggestion that BIF shots from a 6D might be some sort of proof that would seal up and end the thread discussion.

I agree. Most of us here are moderates, and refrain from stating something like "the 6D can NEVER capture a BIF". That would be just foolish to say. But sometimes it happens in the heat of the moment, and that's what sets off an argument. Because through logic, you only need to provide one nice BIF from a 6D to prove otherwise. Well, that's easy to do, but just like you said, that will not make the 6D a dedicated BIF camera

I've shot many nice BIF images with my 6D, but almost always because I was shooting with my 6D for some other reason. E.g. I went to my home country of Hungary last summer. My wife and I got married, all family lives in Hungary and considering the type of photos I was planning on taking in Hungary, I had decided to take my 6D with me and not my 7D that I owned back then.
But I'm also a birder and there were plenty of opportunities to shoot birds in Hungary, especially that right next to my parents' house is a stork nest, with 3 young storks this summer. It was a target rich environment to say the least. I had my 6D, my Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS and a 2x TC, and I had to make do with that rig. I captured some really cool storks in flight images, but the whole time I wished I had had my 7D and my 120-300 2.8 OS with me.

In the Florida keys we stopped at Key Largo's Wild Bird Center. It's on the coast and there are dozens of cool birds hanging out. I started shooting with the 6D, got some really cool static and in-flight shots of pelicans and egrets. But Since I had my 70D with me, I switched to that, partly because of the 19 point AF system, and partly because of the live view AF and flippy screen, so I can shoot some very low angle over the water photos.
So most of my BIFs that day came from the 70D and while the 6D shots look great, the 70D gave me a wider range of options how to shoot BIFs. (and higher fps too.)

So again, yes, the 6D can capture BIF, and if that's the only tool in my toolbox, I bring the best out of it, but it's usually better to have a more suitable tool.

gabebalazs wrote in post #16767187
I'm a birder and the vast majority of people I know use either the center point for tracking BIF or, if the camera has it, zones.
I have a 70D, and had a couple 7Ds in the past, but I never really used just one peripheral point for BIF.
I've taken quite a few excellent BIF images with my 6D, mostly using either the center point, or all 11 points (since they take up a relatively smaller section of the VF, at least compared to a 7D).

I've posted many of them in other threads, not sure if I need to post them here. But if people want me to, I'd gladly do it.

I agree that most BIF shots are done with center point or Zone AF. I was just running with the example.

I think a better test would be a track event like the 100m dash. Put both cameras in portrait orientation, use the "upper" most AF point so that it is on the face of the runner. Photograph the runner coming towards the photographer. You could also do this test by tracking the runner left to right (or vice versa), just use the left or right most AF point and keep that point on the runner.

Gabe does fantastic BIF images, as he posts often in the Sigma f/2.8 120-300mm thread.

Bsmooth wrote in post #16767222
Well I think If it could do it and get a good keeper rate then it would at least prove it could do it. I haven't seen a lot of BIF shots with it.
I also do BIF shots using only a center point on my 1DMKII.
Birds are tough to shoot in flight, but If you could keep the center point on them long enough , you should be able to get some good keepers.
I'm sure having multiple focus points makes it easier, but then again do you get what you want on the bird in focus ?
Whatever makes it easier, but If you want to shoot BIF and you can save some cash, looks like the 6d would be a winner.
Keep it simple whether it be on a bicycle or a train, its what works in the end. If you have enough money to try them all and keep just what you want, more power to you. Most of us don't have that luxury.
I would like to see a few of the BIF shots though, that would be nice to see.

If you already use center point only for BIF, it may work for you.

Per your request, here are some BIFs from the 6D.

I don't have too many BIF from the 6D, because I don't shoot that body often for BIF.

Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS + 2x TC:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/hbtW​Ky

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jm51​GW

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jm2a​c4

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jkZF​xR

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jkZF​bZ

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jpr6​75

gabebalazs wrote in post #16767206
I see, most of that I knew but some new info there too, thanks.

So basically, not a huge difference between a double cross and a cross plus an extra -.
So worst case scenario is that in extreme cases there may be a 45 degree angle in one possible position since the second | is missing; we have an X and a - but no |. We are only talking about the center point, at least that's what the other poster complained about.

We also don't know what lens he was using (or I don't remember reading it). If it was slower than f/2.8 then it's only single cross type, and then it doesn't matter if the second element is a cross or simple -

Note that we talk about "cross points". But they are actually +, i.e. a vertical and a horisontal line.

Next thing - I think the 6D extra sensitive line is half of the center "cross", i.e. half of the center plus point. But it doesn't matter if it is half of the center point or extra beside the center point - it can't help optimize the angle between feature and AF sensor lines. You still have a worst-case of 45 degrees while the 5D3 have a worst-case of 22.5 degrees - while having enough light that the focus lines does function.

Edit: You can see the 6D AF pattern at: http://thenewcamera.co​m …-6d-vs-canon-5d-mark-iii/

Gabe, those are beautiful 6D BIF examples!

pwm2 wrote in post #16767242
Note that we talk about "cross points". But they are actually +, i.e. a vertical and a horisontal line.

Next thing - I think the 6D extra sensitive line is half of the center "cross", i.e. half of the center plus point. But it doesn't matter if it is half of the center point or extra beside the center point - it can't help optimize the angle between feature and AF sensor lines. You still have a worst-case of 45 degrees while the 5D3 have a worst-case of 22.5 degrees - while having enough light that the focus lines does function.

Edit: You can see the 6D AF pattern at: http://thenewcamera.co​m …-6d-vs-canon-5d-mark-iii/

OK, one more question.
I've read conflicting info about how these double crosses work. It is clear that with a slower lens (e.g. f/4) obviously only the single cross works. I get that.
But then some say that with a lens f/2.8 or faster, the other, extra sensitive cross "takes over" and does the focusing. That would imply that the "slower" cross gets deactivated so to speak? I thought, and your explanation also states, that at f/2.8 and faster both crosses are working simultaneously (at least in the 5DIII).

David Arbogast wrote in post #16767269
Gabe, those are beautiful 6D BIF examples!

Thank you!

Looks like the new 5DIII firmware raised the cross-type AF to F8.
http://www.usa.canon.c​om …_display/EOS5DM​3_firmware

Bakewell wrote in post #16767168
You don't have to worry about that.

Nice! Haven't heard that since 6th grade!

That terrible center point! Really? Congratulations, you are now officially part of "the group"!

Haha, Bakewell I, like the others, feel for you. Really and truly. I never once said it was a 'Terrible' center-point. Reading comprehension and a little common sense will take you far.

If "the group" is considered anybody that does not think like you do, I am very happy to be a part of that.

The 6D Center cross is a 5.6 cross type in a + pattern. There is an additional non cross single line that overlays the cross in a - shape that is 2.8 sensitive. It captures vertical lines (because it is horizontal it sees anything vertical.

So again. That 2.8 sensitive horizontal line in the center is very sensitive and very good but it's not a cross type. The center cross is only 5.6 sensitive. But together they work good. If you don't use 2.8 or faster glass then you lose that capability of the 2.8 but you still benefit from a + type cross sensor and another - overlayed on top of it.

Now the 5D3

It does have multiple cross type dual AF in the center but they are not dual 2.8 cross type. The 5 vertical center points have one 2.8 cross in a X format and a 5.6 sensitive overlayed on top in a + format creating a dual cross. It's outer points surrounding the center 5 are regular 5.6 cross as found on the outer points of the 7D and the further points in blue are F4 vertical sensitive and 5.6 horizontal sensitive cross type and the furthest outer points are just regular horizontal types as found on the 6D outer points.

I'm not sure but I believe the 7D, 60D both have actual dual 2.8 cross type centers not found in either 6D or the 5D3, these two have a different method as mentioned above.

Somebody check me on this.

Those sure are beautiful Shots indeed. I'm sure most of us who shoot BIF would like to have a 5DII or 1DMKIV, as close to perfect for the job cameras that Canon makes.
Again though were talking some serious money, so a viable alternative would be good. Yes the 7D, or even 7D2, If and when it comes about. But after seeing those shots I seriously think the 6d could also do as well, especially If you happen to do a lot of shooting in the early and late evening. Granted the 5DIII is the best in this regard, but I think the 6D also deserves a lot of credit as well.
Its a very good all around camera, with other abilities as well. Especailly after a few years when the used ones drop in price, probably right around a $1000, maybe even less.

gabebalazs wrote in post #16767239
If you already use center point only for BIF, it may work for you.

Per your request, here are some BIFs from the 6D.

I don't have too many BIF from the 6D, because I don't shoot that body often for BIF.

Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS + 2x TC:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/hbtW​Ky

120-300 2.8 OS + 1.4 TC, 420mm:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jm51​GW

Same setup:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jm2a​c4

Same:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/jkZF​xR

Same:

https://flic.kr/p/jkZF​bZ

More challenging, especially with a Tamron 150-600. Heavy crop:

https://flic.kr/p/jpr6​75

Sweet...not sure how they could be any better! You must be a magician!

Bakewell wrote in post #16767612
Sweet...not sure how they could be any better! You must be a magician!

Believe me it's not the camera. It's that peanut behind the viewfinder

Talley wrote in post #16767426
The 6D Center cross is a 5.6 cross type in a + pattern. There is an additional non cross single line that overlays the cross in a - shape that is 2.8 sensitive. It captures vertical lines (because it is horizontal it sees anything vertical.

So again. That 2.8 sensitive horizontal line in the center is very sensitive and very good but it's not a cross type. The center cross is only 5.6 sensitive. But together they work good. If you don't use 2.8 or faster glass then you lose that capability of the 2.8 but you still benefit from a + type cross sensor and another - overlayed on top of it.

Now the 5D3

It does have multiple cross type dual AF in the center but they are not dual 2.8 cross type. The 5 vertical center points have one 2.8 cross in a X format and a 5.6 sensitive overlayed on top in a + format creating a dual cross. It's outer points surrounding the center 5 are regular 5.6 cross as found on the outer points of the 7D and the further points in blue are F4 vertical sensitive and 5.6 horizontal sensitive cross type and the furthest outer points are just regular horizontal types as found on the 6D outer points.

I'm not sure but I believe the 7D, 60D both have actual dual 2.8 cross type centers not found in either 6D or the 5D3, these two have a different method as mentioned above.

Somebody check me on this.

Were those images of the focus types for the 5D3 or 6D? Thanks.

It also helps they are dark coloured birds against clean uncluttered backgrounds.