Arrgg..how to handle this...

Wow, what a thread! (Porky, you remind ,me of a Battlefield 2 player I played with years ago called porkchop). I also see you from South Africa!

A few pages back, you said 1000 - 1200$ for a wedding shoot. Converted to our currency, that is A LOT. My wedding photographer was amazing, with 15 years of experience I paid the equivalent of 1200USD for pics I use as a benchmark for my own work, its that good, and I believe her to be very well priced considering the quality of her work, I will be happy to send you a link, its a great way to compare and value your own work against.

Regarding equipment, especially wedding related, you definitely want 2 cards, 2 camera's, (borrow, rent a second one) and lenses that possibly overlap abilities. By choice, I dont market myself as a wedding photographer, you messing with memories. However, I have done 3 paid weddings, for people I know well, that know me. They were all blown away with the results, but then again, they knew what to expect.

I shoot as a hobbyist/freelance, I work as a graphic designer 9-5, but I do freelance ONLY if im 100% confident that I can provide images that will exceed customer expectations.. And I believe that is the key word, "Customer expectations".

Ask them for references, see what they like, if they don't have references, manage their expectations, show them realistically what they can expect with an accurate portfolio. Discuss locations, times of day, understand the shoot coming up and plan accordingly.

Working with clients/customers can be very easy, or very painful. You really need to value yourself and your time. Is fighting, posting and arguing worth the money? I have more important things to do. I would have just sent the RAW files and be done with them. Its faster, cheaper and much less dramatic to do.

Regarding this whole debacle...
Yes, the original purchaser was happy, but we have the customer protection act that allows the end customer (the owner of the photo's being the birthday girl as its a gift) to complain, change their mind for a week (or longer) after purchase. its a right in our economy. Its easy to just be stubborn and stand by what you believe your rights to be, but sometimes tact, directness and proper open communication is king.

my 2c

Traci_Ann wrote in post #16807956
"Not even close to the same thing."

It is the same thing. I don't think you'll find a clearer explanation, I also don't think you'll find many successful business people who agree with your choices.

It isn't the same thing. In the case of returning a TV to a store, the consumer does not get to keep the product. The TV goes back to the store, and the money is then refunded.

In this case, the customer took delivery of digital photographs. It is safe to assume that each of the ladies in the photos have a copy of at least some of the photos. If only one copy of the deliverables existed, the photos had not been duplicated and shared between the ladies and their family, or on Facebook (which they may, or may not, have been), then it would be the same as the TV. The deliverables could be returned and the money refunded. In this case, it would be impossible to ensure the deletion of the deliverables from all of the computers and electronic devices the deliverables now reside on.

As far as I'm concerned, the window for a possible refund closed when the client took delivery of the disk containing the images. I would never issue a refund past that point, though I might offer to reshoot if dissatisfaction arose (not for a lousy $60, though) and the concerns were valid.

Has the OP made mistakes? Certainly. We all do. Human nature ensures this. Did he lie? Yes. Does he need to be crucified for it? No. Did he learn his lesson? I hope so. Some of us (myself included) learn most efficiently through our mistakes.

Porky101 -there are a few people here that are really trying to help you in the long term of business. You should listen to them and quit trying to justify some of your deceptive actions.

neacail wrote in post #16809132
It isn't the same thing. In the case of returning a TV to a store, the consumer does not get to keep the product. The TV goes back to the store, and the money is then refunded.

In this case, the customer took delivery of digital photographs. It is safe to assume that each of the ladies in the photos have a copy of at least some of the photos. If only one copy of the deliverables existed, the photos had not been duplicated and shared between the ladies and their family, or on Facebook (which they may, or may not, have been), then it would be the same as the TV. The deliverables could be returned and the money refunded. In this case, it would be impossible to ensure the deletion of the deliverables from all of the computers and electronic devices the deliverables now reside on.

As far as I'm concerned, the window for a possible refund closed when the client took delivery of the disk containing the images. I would never issue a refund past that point, though I might offer to reshoot if dissatisfaction arose (not for a lousy $60, though) and the concerns were valid.

Has the OP made mistakes? Certainly. We all do. Human nature ensures this. Did he lie? Yes. Does he need to be crucified for it? No. Did he learn his lesson? I hope so. Some of us (myself included) learn most efficiently through our mistakes.

While I agree with you about no refunds for digital files after delivery, he agreed to one, then changed his mind without offering any significant change in circumstance to justify breaking his word. Then he creates these wild scenarios to (drug abuse, terrorism) to create some moral equivalency for his action. This is not the way someone in a people service industry acts, and he has claimed he is a changed person already a couple times in this, but then reverts to immature behavior a few hours later.

gonzogolf wrote in post #16809448
While I agree with you about no refunds for digital files after delivery, he agreed to one, then changed his mind without offering any significant change in circumstance to justify breaking his word. Then he creates these wild scenarios to (drug abuse, terrorism) to create some moral equivalency for his action. This is not the way someone in a people service industry acts, and he has claimed he is a changed person already a couple times in this, but then reverts to immature behavior a few hours later.

Had the woman who actually paid for the photographs requested the refund then I would agree with you: that he should provide the refund as he stated he would. However, she's been MIA throughout most of this. She has not requested, or been promised, a refund (unless I've missed something somewhere, and there is a lot to read in this thread).

The OP is dealing predominately with a woman who is an outside party to the actual business agreement. So what if she's the "birthday girl." She can cry if she wants to, but I don't think it changes a thing. Hopefully she has learned something from this (the OP isn't the only one with lessons to learn here), too.

Maybe I'm being too tough. But, I've raised one child to adulthood, and now I'm raising a second. Pouting, temper-tantrums, "oh woe is me," bullying behaviour . . . I've seen and heard it all, and I'm now (mostly) immune.

I'm not going to judge the OP based on his responses in this thread. This is a volatile situation and a volatile thread. Volatility often brings out the worst in people. I expect he's flipping between "fight and flight" as well as complete resignation.

My hope for him (the OP) is that he'll professionally survive this, learn from this, and move forward with a clear head and a clear plan.

bpiper7 wrote in post #16808934
He was offered that exact version and offered his usual weasel in return.

It wasn't that exact version at all. Previous advisers have told him either that (1) going back on your word is dishonest or just wrong (without saying why) or that (2) going back on your word is a bad move for selfish reasons because the client will never trust you again, you'll lose sales, your business will suffer. What I did that was new was to emphasize the effect on the client rather than on the promise breaker, and the effect at the time of the transaction rather than later when the client is considering further shoots or talking to other potential clients.

A client will take what you say as part of reality. If you say a refund is forthcoming, the client understands your words as assurance that she'll get a refund. It's been said that your word is all you have. I don't know quite what that means, but what's significant to me is that your word is all the client has.

I've read every post. I think you knew what I meant, and yet you're still doing it.

neacail wrote in post #16809506
Had the woman who actually paid for the photographs requested the refund then I would agree with you: that he should provide the refund as he stated he would. However, she's been MIA throughout most of this. She has not requested, or been promised, a refund (unless I've missed something somewhere, and there is a lot to read in this thread).

Hard to know if he has spoken to the original girl. He has stated in post #140 that Strangely everyone has called me except for the person who hired and paid me since I spoke to her first.
but in that same post he says the client has been a pleasure all this time, the worst thing she has said to me is "you are making it very difficult for me".

OhLook wrote in post #16809525
It wasn't that exact version at all. Previous advisers have told him either that (1) going back on your word is dishonest or just wrong (without saying why) or that (2) going back on your word is a bad move for selfish reasons because the client will never trust you again, you'll lose sales, your business will suffer. What I did that was new was to emphasize the effect on the client rather than on the promise breaker, and the effect at the time of the transaction rather than later when the client is considering further shoots or talking to other potential clients.

A client will take what you say as part of reality. If you say a refund is forthcoming, the client understands your words as assurance that she'll get a refund. It's been said that your word is all you have. I don't know quite what that means, but what's significant to me is that your word is all the client has.

This was the direct answer to his spectacularly dense question. "Because if you go back on your word about one thing how is a client supposed to know you will not do the same with other things. Once they lose trust in you then its hard to get back." He responded to THAT with a weaselly whine.

Twisting that into a difference with your versions demonstrates the same lack of awareness the OP shows.

Since you have all this empathy, help me out here.
How DOES one get to the alleged age of 25 and still be able to ask WHY you should keep your word? And still expect to be taken seriously?

Maybe being raised in the desert by coyotes?

bpiper7 wrote in post #16809676
Maybe being raised in the desert by coyotes?

No; coyotes would have taught him to pay more attention to "the chubby one."

nathancarter wrote in post #16809717
No; coyotes would have taught him to pay more attention to "the chubby one."

^^^^^^^

bpiper7 wrote in post #16809676
This was the direct answer to his spectacularly dense question. "Because if you go back on your word about one thing how is a client supposed to know you will not do the same with other things. Once they lose trust in you then its hard to get back." He responded to THAT with a weaselly whine.

Twisting that into a difference with your versions demonstrates the same lack of awareness the OP shows.

You still don't see the difference between an explanation about the long-term consequences for oneself of losing the client's trust and the explanation I gave, which was about the immediate effect on the client from the client's point of view?

When I was 25, I knew to keep my word, and I knew not to lie. I can't say I understood why these were good principles to follow. They're known virtues, all right, but to someone who hasn't thought things through very far, they may seem like arbitrary rules imposed by distant authorities. You used an important word, "empathy." Lying and promise breaking have victims other than oneself. A 25-year-old may yet make progress in developing the ability to take the perspective of people affected by his actions. Indeed, there are 35-year-olds and 75-year-olds who haven't mastered it.

porky101 wrote in post #16807613
Thanks for the positivity Mr Phil, If I listened to people like you all my life, I wouldn't have even bought my first camera.

...

Really? If you thought lying to customers was wrong you wouldn't have bought a camera.

I think you should have stuck with that.

You have no idea how this looks to an adult. You're prepared to argue black is white and to compare your perfectly decent customers to drug dealers and terrorists rather than admit you screwed up and you should just stand by your promise to give a refund.

This attitude is so unprofessional it's close to being a complete joke.

Thanks for the advice peeps. I havent had much time the past day got an event I had to do for some bank, their usual guy got ill of somesort and I was called to fill in.

ill be back soon!!

neacail wrote in post #16809132
As far as I'm concerned, the window for a possible refund closed when the client took delivery of the disk containing the images. I would never issue a refund past that point, though I might offer to reshoot if dissatisfaction arose (not for a lousy $60, though) and the concerns were valid.

...everybody in this thread agreed (including me) that no refund should be offered right up until the point where he actually agreed to the refund. That loud noise you heard was the collective smacking of the foreheads by the readers of the thread. Everyone agrees that the window for a refund was closed after delivery. But the OP decided to open it up again.

There comes a point when you have to make the choice to take the path with the "least pain." The OP is currently not answering the phone because he doesn't want to deal with this. This will drag out...and out...and out. There is a difference between doing what you suggest (acting professionally and standing up for your business principals) and what the OP has done. Paying the refund as agreed ends this and allows the OP to move on.

^If one cares about integrity, this is totally correct.