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Thread started 12 Apr 2014 (Saturday) 15:34
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Renowned Photographer Jeff Mitchum's Masterpiece "Third Day" Sells For $1.8 Million

 
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benji25
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May 02, 2014 16:52 |  #691

Shadowblade wrote in post #16877832 (external link)
But, had toilets and plumbing never been invented, how society interacts would be very different.

How society interacts is not the only thing that affects society.


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Shadowblade
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May 02, 2014 19:50 |  #692

benji25 wrote in post #16877992 (external link)
How society interacts is not the only thing that affects society.

Of course it is. Interaction is society and civilisation. Everything else is just individuals.




  
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OhLook
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May 02, 2014 20:10 |  #693

Shadowblade wrote in post #16877802 (external link)
And I have yet to see a single example of human expression - the 'how' and 'why' of an image, not simply the 'what' - making a difference in the course humanity took.

I take it you didn't believe what I said about Brave New World, and the "how" of writing in general, and you still believe that an essay would have had the impact the novel had?

Shadowblade wrote in post #16877376 (external link)
It also wasn't pictures as art that had that impact. It was pictures as evidence of the existence of these beautiful places that had impact.

A picture made artfully will convey the beauty of a place when a picture made without skill and thought won't. You speak of pictures as if they functioned only to transmit information.

No, lots of people is individuals - just lots of them. Society is the way these lots of individuals interact with each other. A crowd is not a society. A crowd can manifest as part of a society, but is not a society in itself.

What I see here is that you're more comfortable dealing with higher-order abstractions than with humans considered as ends in themselves. If that's the whole story behind your dismissal of effects on individuals as unimportant, it doesn't suffice to justify that dismissal. It's simply a fact about the way you think.

The point has been made repeatedly that music is important because it enhances many people's lives. You have agreed that people love music, but you don't agree that access to what a person loves is important. (If music hadn't spurred the iPod, something else would have, you say, or maybe not, given that an iPod designed to enable users to hear Morse code all day would have had too few buyers.) Evidently, in your world, human well-being doesn't matter unless it has large-scale consequences, such as moving national boundaries or changing a nation's economy. Whatever doesn't show up on a graph and doesn't get into the history books is beneath notice. But what is the importance of the things that do show up on graphs and do get into the history books? I would say they are important because they affect individuals. What other source of meaningfulness could they possibly have?

The toilet (more specifically, the transition from letting sewage flow in the streets to putting it in pits or flushing it far away with water) did affect society. Cities became much healthier, more pleasant and more desirable places to live, helping them grow in size. It helped shift the centre of power in countries where it became widespread from the country (where nobility and landed gentry held sway) to the city (where wealthy merchants held sway and intellectuals were influential).

Who cares about the growth of cities and the moving center of power except insofar as individuals were affected?

Shadowblade wrote in post #16877411 (external link)
Hence, it didn't drive the change or social movement. It merely reinforced what people already believed - or they couldn't have been created in the first place. In short, music merely reflected, rather than drove, changes in society.

No, the music and literature of a culture or subculture affect members' morale, clarify grievances and goals, and serve as acts of communication in other ways. All you're doing is contradicting my previous statement without offering evidence.

Because if it only affects individuals, without changing the way they interact with each other, it doesn't actually change the path humanity takes. Sure, it may seem important to certain people now, but, when you take a god's-eye view on the progression of humanity through the ages, these things have had absolutely no impact on the path it has taken.

The path that humanity has taken does what, exactly, independent of the effects on individuals? "Humanity" isn't a sentient being. A person is.

You found time today to reply to several posts but not to mine. I get tired of having to ask the same questions twice.


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Somebloke
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May 02, 2014 20:55 |  #694

My god this debate is like a battle of attrition!!!




  
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watt100
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May 03, 2014 07:16 |  #695

Somebloke wrote in post #16878403 (external link)
My god this debate is like a battle of attrition!!!

crazy - not sure now what the "battle" is about




  
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CyberDyneSystems
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May 03, 2014 17:29 |  #696

Move this discussion to http:/toilet-discussions-on-the.net

...please.



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Renowned Photographer Jeff Mitchum's Masterpiece "Third Day" Sells For $1.8 Million
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