The quadra killer AKA Cheetahstand CL-600

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #17193289
The whole post is just wrong, not just the last sentence. Even though the DURATION of the shutter approaches x-sync the time the subject is exposed for during that time is only that of the shutter speed set.. hence, 1/8000s is 1/8000s and not the shutter DURATION of 1/250s. 1/8000s would be the appropriated "determinant for action stopping" and thats with each of HSS, Hypersync or even 'H' mode.

I think we have to go back to cwg's post about the ranger heads. I again think that the idea is that the ranger has a super short duration even at high power and will be the determining factor in stopping motion.

I think.

dmward wrote in post #17183822
Remember that HSS, Hyper Sync or H mode on the CL/Godox strobes turns the light(s) into constant light source so the shutter speed is the determinant for action stopping.

The intent, with all three options, is to extend the strobe output so that it is illuminating the subject for the full duration of the shutter travel. Also, remember that even at 1/8000 shutter speed, the time required for the shutter curtains to traverse the sensor is approximately the X sync shutter speed.

dmward wrote in post #17190444
Since HSS, HyperSync and H mode are techniques that turn the strobe into a short duration constant light source, the shutter speed is the determinant for stopping motion rather than the flash duration since it is being extended to provide a relatively constant light source for the duration of shutter travel at x-sync speed.

I edited the first post to eliminate the word NOT, which I should have caught but didn't. It obviously made the statement the opposite of what I extended.

I also cleaned up the first post by eliminating the confusing last sentence in the first post which should have been as written in the second post.

The bottom-line is that these three modes all rely on the shutter speed to stop action, rather than the strobe.

Short duration strobes, like the Elinchrom with A head will stop action based on their flash duration. However, the x sync speed is then the maximum shutter speed. This introduces the complexity of ambient/strobe exposure balance into action stopping.

Thanks for the concise and informative answer, Scott.

Would you say that 360 or 600's are reliable at HSS / Fast Sync, or would you recommend sticking to ND filters for time-pressed shoots?

Do you mean the ambient light forces the strobe to be at greater power and hence lengthens flash duration? I'm trying to understand the blurring when strong ambient light is present even for the Quadra A. Not sure if it's the same IGBT circuitry as the Einstein and speedlites I've used in the past, but the duration curve kinda works that way with those flashes.

Is there a mathematical way to calculate the distance and light modifier size required for a clean frame, or is it a bit of guess and check / trial and error? Are there any flashes that are better for a clean frame with HSS, and is it really worth the trouble compared to ND filters?

Do you mean basically that it needs to be darker to use a shorter flash duration to freeze light at 1/25? Seems like a smart way to freeze action closer to dusk, although I guess a tripod would be necessary with a telephoto lens at that exposure time.

Thanks again a bunch, Scott. You're really knowledgeable and your work balancing ambient and flash is the main reason why I looked into Cheetahstand products in the first place.

abbadon31 wrote in post #17176398
at 1/1 power on the 600 recycle time is about 2.3 which is about the same as the 360 using a 2 to 1 cable and at 1/2 power the 600 is about 1 sec.

I find the HSS/Fast sync not to be reliable, some times it works and other times it don't, but the 600 was not made for that.

Every system has its pro and cons and the key is learning them and taking advantage of those faults.
Weddings the 600 will perform well, but the size can be a issue with some people. Sports the unit will work great in a gym, but it will have problems freezing action if the ambient light is really strong. Even the Quadra A heads have the same problem with blur due to strong ambient light. The flash will freeze the action, but the ambient light will cause the blurred motion.

You can freeze action with slow shutter speeds even at 1/25 sec and lower as long as you can control the ambient light. HSS controls the ambient light as well as ND filter you need a lot of power using either way. The main thing is how close you want the strobe or modifier to your subject or in your frame.

Thanks dmward for the initial response and he's gone and photographersworldwide for the additional questions for clarification. It took me a couple rereadings through the entire thread to understand what you guys said.

If I understand correctly, pushing short exposure time with any of the HSS/Hypersync/fast curtain techniques (using the S head with the Ranger RX) freezes action like shooting at 1/1250th or faster would normally with ambient light action in addition to cutting the ambient light. X-sync, from your last post, dmward, only comes into play if I were to use an A head because that can't do PW Hypersync (doesn't have the long shutter duration for it).

Rather, A head is meant to freeze action using the method that Scott mentions, shooting at 1/25 of a second and letting the flash duration do the work of freezing the motion only with low ambient light.

Did I interpret your posts correctly? You guys have been incredibly helpful as this technical concept (this was all a bit of a magical black box to me before your posts) was something I had trouble visualizing completely on my own.

So my Einstein 640 is only good for low ambient light method (Ranger RX A), not balancing light (Ranger RX S). Bit of a bummer, but I guess this is what Scott said about no perfect flash, each with pros and cons. Now I understand that it's pretty clever that packs like the RX have two different types of flash heads for different situations.

dmward wrote in post #17190444
^^ My last sentence is poorly written.
What I was trying to say is that, since HSS, HyperSync and H mode are techniques that turn the strobe into a short duration constant light source, the shutter speed is the determinant for stopping motion rather than the flash duration since it is being extended to provide a relatively constant light source for the duration of shutter travel at x-sync speed.

hes gone wrote in post #17184100
=he's gone;17184100]i don't see how that could possibly be true.

Yes the shutter takes longer than 1/X000 to cross the full opening but any given point on the sensor is only exposed for 1/X000, or 1/500 or whatever, stopping the motion.

I am not an action shooter but have just recently done some controlled experiments trying to determine what shutter speed i will need for an upcoming basketball shoot. I grabbed a ball and remote shutter release to find that 1/1000 almost froze my fingertips while dribbling, and 1/1500 did the trick, even at close range. I was using the CL-360 and i believe it worked the same with HSS or 1/1 long duration flash.

there's also this post: https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=16925572#po​st16925572

PhotographersWorldWide wrote in post #17193289
The whole post is just wrong, not just the last sentence. Even though the DURATION of the shutter approaches x-sync the time the subject is exposed for during that time is only that of the shutter speed set.. hence, 1/8000s is 1/8000s and not the shutter DURATION of 1/250s. 1/8000s would be the appropriated "determinant for action stopping" and thats with each of HSS, Hypersync or even 'H' mode.

hes gone wrote in post #17193364
=he's gone;17193364]I think we have to go back to cwg's post about the ranger heads. I again think that the idea is that the ranger has a super short duration even at high power and will be the determining factor in stopping motion.

I think.

dmward wrote in post #17194722
I edited the first post to eliminate the word NOT, which I should have caught but didn't. It obviously made the statement the opposite of what I extended.

I also cleaned up the first post by eliminating the confusing last sentence in the first post which should have been as written in the second post.

The bottom-line is that these three modes all rely on the shutter speed to stop action, rather than the strobe.

Short duration strobes, like the Elinchrom with A head will stop action based on their flash duration. However, the x sync speed is then the maximum shutter speed. This introduces the complexity of ambient/strobe exposure balance into action stopping.

cwg wrote in post #17213614
Thanks dmward for the initial response and he's gone and photographersworldwide for the additional questions for clarification. It took me a couple rereadings through the entire thread to understand what you guys said.

If I understand correctly, pushing short exposure time with any of the HSS/Hypersync/fast curtain techniques (using the S head with the Ranger RX) freezes action like shooting at 1/1250th or faster would normally with ambient light action in addition to cutting the ambient light. X-sync, from your last post, dmward, only comes into play if I were to use an A head because that can't do PW Hypersync (doesn't have the long shutter duration for it).

Rather, A head is meant to freeze action using the method that Scott mentions, shooting at 1/25 of a second and letting the flash duration do the work of freezing the motion only with low ambient light.

Did I interpret your posts correctly? You guys have been incredibly helpful as this technical concept (this was all a bit of a magical black box to me before your posts) was something I had trouble visualizing completely on my own.

So my Einstein 640 is only good for low ambient light method (Ranger RX A), not balancing light (Ranger RX S). Bit of a bummer, but I guess this is what Scott said about no perfect flash, each with pros and cons. Now I understand that it's pretty clever that packs like the RX have two different types of flash heads for different situations.

The Einstein 640 uses IGBT power control, as do speedlites. With IGBT as power is reduced the circuitry cuts the capacitor circuit to the flash tube. This results in shorter and shorter flash durations as power is reduced.

From an action stopping point of view, this means that at lower power settings its possible to freeze acton that is difficult to do with a fast shutter. Naturally ambient light has to be kept low enough so that it doesn't contribute to the exposure.

There are a number of articles around that describe how people have used this capability to create some interesting images. Especially a photographer in England that, using Einsteins, has created images where the model is "clothed" in splashed milk. I think there is a link to his site on the buff website. http://aurumlight.com

There is also a good article there explaining what has been discussed here. http://paulcbuff.com/s​fe-flashduration.php

Yup, I read all those pages a couple of years ago, understand IGBT circuitry, and have used an Einstein 640 at full power with a Pocketwizard TT5 and the PowerMC2 to lengthen the flash duration for Hypersync. Was my interpretation of your advice in my earlier post correct? Just wanted to double-check with you. Again, thanks for all the help.

dmward wrote in post #17213886
The Einstein 640 uses IGBT power control, as do speedlites. With IGBT as power is reduced the circuitry cuts the capacitor circuit to the flash tube. This results in shorter and shorter flash durations as power is reduced.

From an action stopping point of view, this means that at lower power settings its possible to freeze acton that is difficult to do with a fast shutter. Naturally ambient light has to be kept low enough so that it doesn't contribute to the exposure.

There are a number of articles around that describe how people have used this capability to create some interesting images. Especially a photographer in England that, using Einsteins, has created images where the model is "clothed" in splashed milk. I think there is a link to his site on the buff website. http://aurumlight.com

There is also a good article there explaining what has been discussed here. http://paulcbuff.com/s​fe-flashduration.php

stock reflector one cl-600

^^^^Wow, beautiful Scott!!

Any news on the release date on these?

Jim

insane images.

Its being all redesigned so it will be next year. The only thing staying the same is the shape of the head.

Thanks for the update.

Jim

abbadon31 wrote in post #17275461
Its being all redesigned so it will be next year. The only thing staying the same is the shape of the head.

That explains why I couldn't find it on the Cheetah Light page, I'd check it every couple days to see if it was pre order time yet.

Thanks for the update

I could tell something was wrong when the buzz about the product died right down.

jmaher wrote in post #17275807
Thanks for the update.

Jim

Gaarryy wrote in post #17278112
That explains why I couldn't find it on the Cheetah Light page, I'd check it every couple days to see if it was pre order time yet.

Thanks for the update

SamFrench wrote in post #17278212
I could tell something was wrong when the buzz about the product died right down.

That is smart marketing. A complete product redesign is exciting! I hope its only more kick ass than it already was....

That, or I have to buy a speedotron 1500.....