Backing up image directories without losing data?

Hi, I currently use LR and when I am done with a directory and back it up on my external drive, when I then open it in LR from that drive, it seems to lose all of my adjustments. Sometimes LR eventually figured it out, but sometimes not. What is the ideal way to back this up? When I back it up, I usually just transfer the files over via copy and paste in windows explorer, but should I be doing this through LR? It was my understanding that all LR is doing is making XMP sidecars to the RAW files so I figured as long as they are moved with it, everything should be as it was right?

When you say you are backing your images up, I think you are getting your workflow mixed up!

The Lightroom catalog "references" your images in one location, that would be the location of the images (before being backed up). It won't then be able to just go to a new location and open/work with the backup images unless you actually "point" LR to that new location.

The way LR backs up it's catalog is either via the Backup built-in routine or, if you wish, by you copying and pasting the LR catalog (.lrcat) file/folder. But remember, the catalog is separate from your actual images.

My workflow is to Import my shoots into an internal hard drive, in a "current/short term" directory structure, and do short-term work there. Then, because each shoot is in its own "named" sub-directory, I can use Lightroom to move the shoots onto an external "library" drive, and then those shoots stay "connected" (in my catalog and my Library "Folders").

When I do want a back-up, I'll do that to a separate "backup" external drive. The backups aren't part of the working catalog, though.

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #16881678
Hi, I currently use LR and when I am done with a directory and back it up on my external drive, when I then open it in LR from that drive, it seems to lose all of my adjustments. Sometimes LR eventually figured it out, but sometimes not. What is the ideal way to back this up? When I back it up, I usually just transfer the files over via copy and paste in windows explorer, but should I be doing this through LR? It was my understanding that all LR is doing is making XMP sidecars to the RAW files so I figured as long as they are moved with it, everything should be as it was right?

I may be wrong, but I don't think that LR uses the xmp files it creates. Those are primarily to allow the LR edits to be read by other photo editing software. It reads the recipes it writes from the catalog, and that catalog looks for the photo in a specific location. If you copy the files to a backup drive without using LR, that is, by default, a different location and LR wont know what it has done previously with those images because it only recognizes them with the changes in the original import location.

I think that this is close to how it works, but I could be way off too. I'm a LR user, but I don't worry about the technical side of it. I make sure that I understand what LR needs from me, and then I do that and try not to do any of the things that I know LR doesn't like me to do. It's a demanding mistress, but I seem to get along with it okay.

if you move the images outside of LR they should show up with a "?" in LR. either the images or the entire folders. I right click will give you the option to find them again, once you point LR to the folder in it's new location LR will find everything again. It's best or at least easiest to do the move in LR, but this finding option works as well. I don't know where LR stores your adjustments, but if it can't find the image file in the original location because you moved it, this is how you can get everything back again.

So could you just rt click on the folder and select "Export this folder as a catalog" and put it on an external drive?

phantelope wrote in post #16882061
if you move the images outside of LR they should show up with a "?" in LR. either the images or the entire folders. I right click will give you the option to find them again, once you point LR to the folder in it's new location LR will find everything again. It's best or at least easiest to do the move in LR, but this finding option works as well. I don't know where LR stores your adjustments, but if it can't find the image file in the original location because you moved it, this is how you can get everything back again.

According to his first post, he didn't move them, he copied them to a backup drive. Now for some reason he wants to work from the backup. At least that's how he explained it. If he did move the catalog images, then your plan would work. If he just copied them then it seems like he'd end up with two version of each photo, with different edits depending on whether he worked on the original folder or the backup.

A backup file should be just that - back up. It should be (at least mine are) overwritten each time a new backup is done. My WD external automatically and continuously backs up my Downloads, Documents and and Pictures folders, so my catalog backups are backed up, and my photo files are backed up, and if I ever need to restore them, they will restore to the location that the catalog sees. I never work on the backup files.

Preeb wrote in post #16882140
According to his first post, he didn't move them, he copied them to a backup drive. Now for some reason he wants to work from the backup. At least that's how he explained it. If he did move the catalog images, then your plan would work. If he just copied them then it seems like he'd end up with two version of each photo, with different edits depending on whether he worked on the original folder or the backup.

A backup file should be just that - back up. It should be (at least mine are) overwritten each time a new backup is done. My WD external automatically and continuously backs up my Downloads, Documents and and Pictures folders, so my catalog backups are backed up, and my photo files are backed up, and if I ever need to restore them, they will restore to the location that the catalog sees. I never work on the backup files.

Basically what I'd like to do is move the folder to an external hard drive and have all of my edits saved. This was not a problem when I used to just use camera RAW/CS6, but for some reason is when I use LR now

OK, first off I missed where you mentioned .xmp files. Well, Lightroom can use xmp files if you set the preferences to do so, otherwise the catalog stores the metadata info.

There is a difference between the LR default behavior and the ACR default behavior in Photoshop. ACR by default does save xmp files, LR by default does not.

if you go to a folder and Import it/the images in it and they have xmp files then I believe Lightroom will "read" them, but if you do not set LR to use xmp files, then by default it won't write and read them as the "normal" part of the catalog.

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #16882114
So could you just rt click on the folder and select "Export this folder as a catalog" and put it on an external drive?

Yes, you can, you can export part of your working catalog and Import it into a different catalog. But is that actually what you want to do? I was under the impression that you wanted to copy the images over to the external drive and then with your working catalog just go and open those images and work with them...? With what you are asking about you'd need or at least a new catalog to work with those duplicate images, although there may be a LR Preference that will allow you to work with duplicates, not sure, haven't tried it, and see no use for that in my workflow!

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #16882241
Basically what I'd like to do is move the folder to an external hard drive and have all of my edits saved. This was not a problem when I used to just use camera RAW/CS6, but for some reason is when I use LR now

Like I said, you can set up LR to use xmp files by default, but unless you do that LR doesn't work that way.

The easiest and most efficient way to do what you want is in LR actually move the folders/images. You can do this in the Library panel. You'd typically want to start by creating a "parent" folder in your external drive, using the Folders "Add Folder"/"+" function. Then, you click and slide folders from individual shoots from your internal drive into your external drive/parent folder. I have parent folders named by Year.

This way you aren't copying things to your external drive and then trying to locate them in LR. LR moves the folders/images and keeps your editing data in the catalog.

tonylong wrote in post #16882312
OK, first off I missed where you mentioned .xmp files. Well, Lightroom can use xmp files if you set the preferences to do so, otherwise the catalog stores the metadata info.

There is a difference between the LR default behavior and the ACR default behavior in Photoshop. ACR by default does save xmp files, LR by default does not.

if you go to a folder and Import it/the images in it and they have xmp files then I believe Lightroom will "read" them, but if you do not set LR to use xmp files, then by default it won't write and read them as the "normal" part of the catalog.

Yes, you can, you can export part of your working catalog and Import it into a different catalog. But is that actually what you want to do? I was under the impression that you wanted to copy the images over to the external drive and then with your working catalog just go and open those images and work with them...? With what you are asking about you'd need or at least a new catalog to work with those duplicate images, although there may be a LR Preference that will allow you to work with duplicates, not sure, haven't tried it, and see no use for that in my workflow!

Like I said, you can set up LR to use xmp files by default, but unless you do that LR doesn't work that way.

The easiest and most efficient way to do what you want is in LR actually move the folders/images. You can do this in the Library panel. You'd typically want to start by creating a "parent" folder in your external drive, using the Folders "Add Folder"/"+" function. Then, you click and slide folders from individual shoots from your internal drive into your external drive/parent folder. I have parent folders named by Year.

This way you aren't copying things to your external drive and then trying to locate them in LR. LR moves the folders/images and keeps your editing data in the catalog.

OK Tony, you've provided some really good info......I've been using LR lately and this is just one of those LR that frustrates me. So here's how I handle a wedding file wise.....
1. I import them to my PC
2. I back it up to my external Hard Drive, by copying all of the RAW's before I edit anything
3. I edit everything, sort folders, etc.
4. I move it to an external Hard Drive when finished for permanent storage(I used to just use windows to copy and paste the whole folder to the external Hard Drive and all of my edits are there if I want to go back for anything)

The problem is when backing up step 4 since LR is not using the sidecars, the edits don't transfer over to the external Hard Drive. I'd like the folder backed up just as it was edited if that makes sense and I'm wondering the best way to do that

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #16882348
OK Tony, you've provided some really good info......I've been using LR lately and this is just one of those LR that frustrates me. So here's how I handle a wedding file wise.....
1. I import them to my PC
2. I back it up to my external Hard Drive, by copying all of the RAW's before I edit anything
3. I edit everything, sort folders, etc.
4. I move it to an external Hard Drive when finished for permanent storage(I used to just use windows to copy and paste the whole folder to the external Hard Drive and all of my edits are there if I want to go back for anything)

The problem is when backing up step 4 since LR is not using the sidecars, the edits don't transfer over to the external Hard Drive. I'd like the folder backed up just as it was edited if that makes sense and I'm wondering the best way to do that

Right, go back over the things I've written about how the edits are saved (in the catalog by default) and how to move things within Lightroom.

If you understand that about Lightroom, it is actually more efficient: move the folders within Lightroom and the edits are kept in the catalog and so are used with the images in the new location.

However, if you really need (want) to use xmp files, sure, you either set LR to do this automatically in the Edit/Catalog Preferences dialog in the Metadata tab, or you can do it for chosen images in a folder by using the "Write Metadata to File" command (it's in the Library Metadata menu and in the Develop Photo menu.

Doing that will save the xmp file in the same directory as the image. But you still need to realize that you will waste time and energy trying to copy or move things in a file browser rather than moving them in Lightroom.

Just moved a whole wedding using LR as you suggested Tony......worked perfect! Thanks man

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #16882559
Just moved a whole wedding using LR as you suggested Tony......worked perfect! Thanks man

Whew! OK!

Seriously do some "reading up" on LR before taking another plunge into unknown waters!

The Lightroom Help is excellent by the way, both via accessing Help/F1 and also as a downloadable PDF.

But getting a good LR book such as one by Scott Kelby and/or Marting Evening can be a big plus, as are a lot of good online resources.

Whatever you do pick up, work through it carefully from Page 1. People tend to overlook "stuff" they may not consider "important" (image organization tends to be one of those things) and they neglect learning some important things until they have buried themselves!

tonylong wrote in post #16882623
Whew! OK!

Seriously do some "reading up" on LR before taking another plunge into unknown waters!

The Lightroom Help is excellent by the way, both via accessing Help/F1 and also as a downloadable PDF.

But getting a good LR book such as one by Scott Kelby and/or Marting Evening can be a big plus, as are a lot of good online resources.

Whatever you do pick up, work through it carefully from Page 1. People tend to overlook "stuff" they may not consider "important" (image organization tends to be one of those things) and they neglect learning some important things until they have buried themselves!

Yep, for me it's just adjusting to the weird little quirks of LR. I miss how in Bridge, everything was just there, no need to import, export, doesn't matter how you save it, it's there. LR does seem to work better for me with large projects like weddings and now after about 5 months of it, I'd say I open up ACR maybe once a month for something, so I'm getting the hang of it. LR is supposed to be easier from what I gather, but bridge/ACR/CS6 is easier to grasp for me out of the box

Well, Bridge is "familiar" because it's first a "browser", so we can navigate to wherever we want, and if there are images Bridge will "see" them. Bridge can use a "catalog" for your ACR edits, but by default it stores them in the xmp file.

ACR is different, because it's a plug-in that was developed separately from Bridge and the Photoshop Editor. There are things in Camera Raw that you need to have set up for it to do what you need, and you need to understand the "workflow" and such, but again, for those who have been using Photoshop for all "needs", ACR becomes "familiar"...

And then, there's the Digital Asset Management (DAM) functions. Yes, you can do a lot with Bridge, and over the years Adobe has added features to Bridge that people have appreciated using in Lightroom, although still these tend to be "extras", things you can figure out but aren't so apparent without poking around, reading "tips", that type of thing.

People have come to Lightroom largely because the DAM aspects are "integrated", together with the Raw processing and the output functions. Yes, it has a "learning curve", but still, if you want the DAM together with the Raw processing and the output functions, the integration is a big "plus".

Where people get thrown of, of course, is when they want to do something "familiar", rather than learning to work with the LR integrated system. This especially applies to the DAM functions, as you have found!

tonylong wrote in post #16882623
Whew! OK!

Seriously do some "reading up" on LR before taking another plunge into unknown waters!

The Lightroom Help is excellent by the way, both via accessing Help/F1 and also as a downloadable PDF.

But getting a good LR book such as one by Scott Kelby and/or Marting Evening can be a big plus, as are a lot of good online resources.

Whatever you do pick up, work through it carefully from Page 1. People tend to overlook "stuff" they may not consider "important" (image organization tends to be one of those things) and they neglect learning some important things until they have buried themselves!

I made this chart to represent the basic concepts of LR file handling

1. It shows that the LR Catalog file (.lrcat) normally lives in the folder where the LR software program has been stored, and when LR makes a Backup of the Catalog, the backup also lives in the same place (within a subfolder).
   
2. So if the folder which contains LR software is destroyed, so will the subfolder (along with the Catalog file),all the backups within the subfolder as well!
   
3. RAW files live somewhere else, where you told LR to put them when you Import RAW files into the LR Catalog...they do not live within the Catalog file, and edits to RAW files do not live within the RAW file either.
   
4. So the LR Catalog has to keep track of what folder actually stores each RAW file, and it also keeps track of the list of changes to perform on each RAW file.

• Due to #4, you need to move RAW files and/or folders containing RAW files while working within LR and do not simply use Windows/OSX (to move them without LR)
  
• Due to #3, you need to have COPY of each RAW file somewhere, stored preferably on an external HD. A LR Catalog does NOT hold any RAW data, and neither do any LR Backup catalogs!
  
• Due to #1 and #2, you need to have a COPY of the Catalog, as well as a COPY of any backups, all on an external HD, to save your bacon when your internal HD in your PC eventually fails!