Help with Understanding Lightroom-the "Big Picture"

Hello All,

I apologize for another LR thread, but I did a thread search and didn't find anything pertinent. I am recently back into photography, and in preparation I bought the new Macbook Pro Retina along with LR5 and (and PS Elements), as well as a fresh 1TB external drive for storage.

I have Scott Kelby's book on LR5, and I've watched online tutorials until I'm brain-fried trying to make sense of things before I "dove in" and got lost. Well, apparently I was just meant to be lost.

"Big Picture": I don't understand what I'm doing when I import files from my CF card into LR. Am I using LR to tell the pictures where to go? Am I "storing" pictures in LR? My "plan" is to have my pictures transferred from the camera to an external drive to avoid eating up disk space on the Mac.

Some tutorials say that when you're importing, to "Add" to catalog rather than "Copy", Kelby says to "copy as DNG" which I'm fine with, but the more I try to interpret the "flow" from CF card to final destination, the more I'm screwing it up and creating folders I don't want to create, and ending up with photos where I either don't want them or can't find them.

Fundamentally, I don't understand what LR is doing with the photos prior to Developing.

I understand that this is a completely idiotic problem, but until I understand what's happening, I don't want to mess with it any more so as to avoid compounding mistakes.
I've tried going step by step from the books/videos, and I'm getting screwed up somewhere.

If I were in the States I'd gladly pony up the money for a class, or even private tutorial, but I'm in the middle of NOWHERE at the moment, and you beautiful people are my lifeline.

Thanks sincerely in advance for whatever help you can offer,
Nelson

I think part of the problem is that LR has many options that can get confusing quickly. A simple workflow is to copy your files from your card to your external drive, into a folder with a logical name - just use the Finder and drag your files from the CF card to the folder on your external drive. Now you know you have successfully copied your files to your drive. No LR is involved.

Next, you can copy that set to a DVD, or a back up cloud service or wherever you choose, once you have browsed through your image files (you can do this in the Finder, or the very excellent XNView MP, free image browser, organizer and powerful batch processing utility) to make sure they were not corrupted from the card.

Once you get all that in place, you can fire up LR and just add the files from your working folder (the logically named one) to the LR catalog, keeping them in place on your external drive. Here you can add keywords and do all of that asset management stuff that organized people love to do, cull your files and rate them, etc. The files are not duplicated or copied, just added to the LR database. The edits that you perform will be registered to the database as well, and you can export the edits as XMP files that sit alongside the image files if you need to send them to someone - you can also export whole catalogs, too.

Once you see what LR can do, then you can always make the next step to permitting LR to copy files from your CF card to wherever, make DNG backups, serve you coffee, etc.

Personally, I do not use LR much because the digital asset management (DAM) part of the application gets in the way of editing photos. There are plenty of people here who use the DAM aspect for their work, and they would be much better resources for specific workflow questions.

The last thing you want is not to know if your files are being handled properly, copied where you want them or having multiple copies made that you do not need.

One aspect of using an external drive is that those files will not be available to edit if you are not connected to the drive - look into "Smart Previews" - this feature permits you to make edits on proxy files without copying all of the original files into a LR database on your internal drive.

kirk

Thank you very much Kirk.

The process you describe is what I am "hoping" to achieve. Since I'm shooting RAW, I thought that LR was "necessary" to handle the RAW files for storage. Thank you for clarifying that that is not the case.

SO, logical workflow would be something like this?:

Copy files from CF card directly to appropriate file in external HD
Import photos from external HD into LR catalog ("copy as DNG??????)
Develop files and export (export as JPEG?????)

When you are done developing images, what are you doing with them to keep them organized and accessible? My thought was to send them back to a folder on my external drive, but I don't know if that's the best practice.

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing what LR is doing, or how it's "holding" pictures without creating copies of them (aside from smart previews).

You've been a big help thus far, thank you. I'm just one of those people that can't just grasp the "what" without an understanding of the "why" or the "how".

bogeybrown wrote in post #16901897
Fundamentally, I don't understand what LR is doing with the photos prior to Developing.

It is doing what you tell it to. It gives you the option to copy files from the CF card (or anywhere else) to the location you want them, copy them as DNG (so the resulting copies are DNG), move from one place to another or, if they are already in the right place just add them to your existing catalog. The key is decide which you want to do and stick to it. Decide what file structure you want and either create the folders manually yourself or let LR do it. I have mine in Pictures > Year > Date. After importing I may manually change the folder name (within Lightroom) to Date [Something meaningful].

I use LR to copy the files from my CF card so the files stay on the card until I am sure the copies on the comp are ok and backed up.

In the import dialogue I have LR set to automatically copy the files to a dated folder (which it creates), change the file names, set a "to-do" keyword on all images, set the colour to green so I can see which files are RAW (I set JPEG/TIFF etc to red and virtual copies of the RAW to yellow).

Bogey....

KirkT has some good points. But you can accomplish all of the same things from within lightroom during the initial import. The IMPORT box can be a bit daunting, but its highly customizable and very very flexible/powerful.

For basics....when you import photos from the LR IMPORT dialog box, you have several choices. COPY (or COPY as DNG) will "copy" the files from your compact flash card to any folder you specify (int he right hand side of the window). This leaves a copy on the card as well. If you MOVE them, there will be no copy left on the card. Dangerous....so I would suggest COPY.

Lighroom does not actually "Store" your pics...it merely makes a note of thier location in its own internal database so it knows where the photo is. Nothing more than a filing cabinet full of references to where things are located...Sorta like a card catalogue in the old school library days!

The key is to set up the IMPORT window so that your folders are structured correctly. If you use the COPY function then the pictures will be copied into the folder specified under the "DESTINATION" tab on the right side of the window. It can be a bity tricky to set up, but the folder structure should be displayed under the "destination" tab. You should see your external drive listed. Choose it. At the top, you can specify to place the new photos into a subfolder or not....format the date..etc. All should be relatively self explanatory. Once you have it set up, you wont need to do it ever again, or monthly or yearly (Depending on your folder structure). Just takes a bit of experimenting. But the folder you are getting ready to place them in (copy them into) should be visible on the right. It should allow you to see EXACTLY where they are about to go.

I have attached a screen shot....it shows the "destination" pane in the import window. If you look at the bottom, you'll see that the pics (20 of them) will be copied to my "seagate" external drive into the "pictures" folder (highlighted). The boxes at the top which say "organize by date" and "date format" tells the computer how to format the new folder/name when it copies the photos. Takes some playing around, but your path will be visible and it will tell you how many pics are going where. In this case all 20 were taken the same day so they are destined for the same folder. (J:/Pictures/2014/2014​-04-30). Very powerful. Can be set up virtually any way you choose to file your photos. But also a bit tricky.

If you want to use the IMPORT box to copy your photos into the LR database, I strongly suggest that you then subsequently do all your file "moving" from within the lightroom LIBRARY pane. That way the program will know where the photos got moved to. If you move them to different folders fom OUTSIDE lightroom, the "references" in the database will be broken and that causes a whole new set of issues - LR wont find your photos. But this too can be repaired easily enough. Just a hassle.

Hope this helps a bit.

nutbolt


Edit to add....The IMPORT window even lets you specify a location (any hard drive or folder you wish) to make a backup copy to during import. Its automatic and you wont have to do it manually. Pretty slick.

To me...one of the best features of LR is the DAM system. Once you get used to it, its invaluable!!! And I have to disagree with KirkT when he says it gets in the way of editing....has not been my experience at all. Your experience may differ tho, but once you "get it"....its easy!

bogeybrown wrote in post #16902008
Thank you very much Kirk.

The process you describe is what I am "hoping" to achieve. Since I'm shooting RAW, I thought that LR was "necessary" to handle the RAW files for storage. Thank you for clarifying that that is not the case.

SO, logical workflow would be something like this?:

Copy files from CF card directly to appropriate file in external HD
Import photos from external HD into LR catalog ("copy as DNG??????)
Develop files and export (export as JPEG?????)

When you are done developing images, what are you doing with them to keep them organized and accessible? My thought was to send them back to a folder on my external drive, but I don't know if that's the best practice.

I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing what LR is doing, or how it's "holding" pictures without creating copies of them (aside from smart previews).

You've been a big help thus far, thank you. I'm just one of those people that can't just grasp the "what" without an understanding of the "why" or the "how".

My red above....if you go this route.,...and there is nothing wrong with it....then you need to ADD the photos to the database in the IMPORT window....not COPY. They are already there. You merely are telling LR to "ADD" the reference to the photo location to its internal database.

Yes Sir,

That helps. I "thought" I had the destination system set up properly, but when I did it, I still ended up with all manner of new folders in my external that I didn't want, so I did exactly what I shouldn't have done and re-organized them in my external drive, which caused LR to "lose" them as you described.

So assuming I can perfect my initial import from the CF card to the appropriate folder in my external drive, at what point do you then add them to the catalog?

Again, I apologize for the rudimentary questions, I'm quite simply embarrassed that I'm making this so difficult. I can just foresee all manner of problems in the future dealing with thousands of images rather than dozens if I'm not doing this properly from the absolute start.

My LR catalogue is on an external hard drive. I have two folders. HD - subfolder Desktop and Ext Drive with subfolders by year, etc.

I download my files onto my desktop. I use DPP to cull. When complete I make sure I name the files they way I want for finals. Of course you can rename in LR after.

I then import the files into LR - HD Desktop. I double check them, rename if I forgot to do so. Then within LR I drag and drop the files into the appropriate folder in the external drive. Now they disappear off the desktop.

It may not be the most efficient way but that is my process. I often do testing on LR and just work off the desktop only. This way I don't make a mistake. Once you work on files in LR you have to move them within LR. If your don't then you lose all your edits.

bogeybrown wrote in post #16902071
Yes Sir,

That helps. I "thought" I had the destination system set up properly, but when I did it, I still ended up with all manner of new folders in my external that I didn't want, so I did exactly what I shouldn't have done and re-organized them in my external drive, which caused LR to "lose" them as you described.

So assuming I can perfect my initial import from the CF card to the appropriate folder in my external drive, at what point do you then add them to the catalog?

Again, I apologize for the rudimentary questions, I'm quite simply embarrassed that I'm making this so difficult. I can just foresee all manner of problems in the future dealing with thousands of images rather than dozens if I'm not doing this properly from the absolute start.

Bogey....Once you get the folder structure nailed...thats it. When you "copy" the photos...they will be "added" to the database at the same time they are physically moved to the external drive. LR will copy the file to the proper folder first, then write the location reference in the database at the same time. No extra steps. Easy peasy!!!

You can even rename the files on import....have a basic develop preset applied...designate a color for them (for whatever reason), give star ratings, add keywords, etc. On and on...almost endless options. This can often help cut your processing time way down.

LR is very flexible and can handle literally almost any situation from start to finish as far as filing/management of pics goes. My thought is why do it any way else? LR does it easier and better than I can manually!

And your questions are not rudimentary....I was a bit confused with it too when I got started...and still get confused when I have to tweak it for whatever reason. Very powerful tho....just takes a bit of getting used to.

Good luck....

Thanks Nutbolt,

I think part of it is my inability to surrender control. This is my first Mac (purchased solely for handling photos) so I'm still learning it's "rules".

Add to that I'm a techno-tard, with the combination of a new Mac, a new computer program, and my first legitimate attempt at doing digital photography properly, and I'm getting a bit overwhelmed.

In the past I would typically "just do it" and wait until I was completely screwed before trying to figure it out. Maybe it's maturity sneaking up on me that I'm trying to understand this before it becomes insurmountable (which looks like it could happen quickly).

I refuse to even attempt any of the plug-ins, or PS, until I get this worked out. My frustration-level has safe limits I've learned not to exceed

To answer the last part of your initial question, once I get my images in LR on the computer that's where they stay. I do all my image management in LR, it saves having to open another application to simply look at images. Of course I upload images to Flickr, but with the sorting and publishing tools that can become a simple one click process, with no messy JPEG files saved locally at all. Even when I need to produce JPEG files for some specific use I create the file, use it and delete it. It only takes a moment to reproduce the file again if needed, and the specifications of the file can be exactly matched to the use you will be making of the file. You also no longer have to worry about keeping multiple copies of images synchronized.

The Slideshow, Web and Print modules are IMO much easier to use than the equivalents in Bridge/PSCS. Also making other types of output easy too.

Alan

OK, I'm "late to the party, but...

bogeybrown wrote in post #16902071
Yes Sir,

That helps. I "thought" I had the destination system set up properly, but when I did it, I still ended up with all manner of new folders in my external that I didn't want, so I did exactly what I shouldn't have done and re-organized them in my external drive, which caused LR to "lose" them as you described.

Without knowing exactly what you have been doing, let me just layout my simple Import workflow:

1) Insert the card into the reader. If you have Lightroom configured to do this, it can automatically start up and open the Import dialog when it detects that a card has been inserted. It should navigate to the folder on the card with the pics and show the previews. The card/folder should show up on the upper left corner in the "Source" panel.

If LR doesn't automatically open the Import dialog, then go ahead and open it yourself. Lightroom should automatically navigate to the card and the folder in the card with the images, and then it renders previews and shows them, by default checking the little import check boxes.

OK, are these things you are seeing? If not, stop and speak up! If they do show up properly, then:

2) If you are using a memory card, then LR gives you two options (shown at the top of the window), to Copy as DNG, or to Copy. You are restricted to copying because it's not considered "smart" to "Add" images on a card, and it's also not considered smart to "Move" images because it's possible to have problems that moving could get messed up with. Some folks may have problems with this but it's the way Lightroom does it, Oh Well.

So, you can do the DNG copy/conversion if you'd like. I myself don't use the DNG option and can't give details of how you might work with it, such as the option of copying the original Raw files into one spot and the DNG conversions into another and how to work with them...

I just do a straight Copy of the Raw files.

Now, as to the options in the right panel, it looks more complicated than it is, and once you do it once or twice, it's a quick, simple routine. One thing to remember is that Lightroom "remembers" what you have previously done, so I have a workflow in which most of the settings are the same as before. You can look at the options. The first is at the top where your "parent" destination is shown. I have a "Parent" folder where I import all my shoots to (each into its own subfolder), and so that destination folder shows there at the top, although you can change things by clicking there at the top.

The "File Handling" has options that I don't touch. I keep it at "Standard Previews", "Don't Import Suspected Duplicates", and "Don't" "Make a Second Copy To".

"File Renaming" I do set up with a "Custom" name template, so I enter a file name (text) of the date and a description of the shoot, and I have my template add a sequence in the "XXX" number format.

From there, in "Apply During Import I add a copyright statement to the metadata, that's it and doesn't need to be changed until next year...

And then the "Destination" seems to have you confused. First off, your destination "parent" folder should show up and be selected in the list in the Destination panel. If it doesn't show up or if it's not selected, then either you haven't created it or you haven't selected it in a previous import, so do so now (click the bit at the top if you need to do a new destination).

But then in the Destination panel above that list are important options as to how you want your images stored and so the beginnings of your image organization. For myself, I keep the option to "Organize" "Into One Folder" selected in the drop-down list and above that, the "Into Subfolder" option is selected. For the text/title of the subfolder, you may note that LR "remembers" your previous import so you need to change that. I just copy my filename text (date and description) and paste it into the subfolder name text box.

Then, if you note, I made only two changes during the whole process, the file name, and, through copying/pasting, the subfolder name, and that's it, quick and simple, I click Import, and away we go!

As to why you are seeing strange folders pop up, look at those options, look at my suggestions, think about your preferences/choices!

When you Import the pics you are both copying them into the desired location and at the same time adding them to the catalog. You are now ready to go to work, no muss, no fuss!

Now granted, there are other choices people make, such as to copy the images using a system browser and then use Lightroom to Import, but like I said, the approach I described is quick and simple!

It's OK, go over the steps I described, try them out (just take a couple quick shots and go through that Import process, hey if you mess up you can just delete them from Lightroom and try it again with the same card/shots until you get it right!

And speak up if you run into something!

Wow, thank you Tony,

Amazingly I'm doing most of those things properly, it seems.

I set up my external HD with a "one folder" approach where everything goes into a "my photos" folder. I think where I messed up was creating some sub-folders in that folder myself, instead of just having LR do it. I've been approaching this in terms of I personally needing to be able to hunt down any particular string of photos myself in the hard drive instead of letting LR organize them and find them itself.

The second key thing I've been confused about is what I'm supposed to do with a photo after I've made the necessary changes in LR. I was under the impression that I needed to "export" it as a finished product into someplace else, and if so I was "supposed" to do so as a JPEG.

I was viewing LR as a means of taking RAW files, tweaking them, and then saving them someplace in a format that can be easily viewed or transmitted. Am I off base there?

I may be stuck back in a time when RAW files weren't easily dealt with until they'd been processed, is that still the case?

bogeybrown wrote in post #16903279
Wow, thank you Tony,

Amazingly I'm doing most of those things properly, it seems.

I set up my external HD with a "one folder" approach where everything goes into a "my photos" folder. I think where I messed up was creating some sub-folders in that folder myself, instead of just having LR do it. I've been approaching this in terms of I personally needing to be able to hunt down any particular string of photos myself in the hard drive instead of letting LR organize them and find them itself.

You can do it all, just using Lightroom to keep it quick and simple. You use Lightroom to Import your photos, storing them in the file/folder of your choice, then you can assign keywords, put them in collections, then you have several ways of finding them. I have photos going back more than 10 years and I can find and use them.

With LR you don't "Save", because you are not saving and changing the original Raw file.

LR processes that Raw data, like you have seen. LR has become popular because processing that Raw data has over the years become very effective, so that many of us do the Raw processing then put out the "finished product" strait out of Lightroom, either Exporting for the Web or printing, or one of the other Lightroom output tools!

Thanks Tony,

I think where I"m getting hung up on the processed image is what to do next.

I see the processed image in my LR, but then what?
I'm viewing it in terms of a ton of RAW files imported, some of which are worth further processing and some of those being keepers. What do you do with your keepers if they're not being immediately printed or posted to a hosting site?

And what format are you saving the images in for further use, whether that be as an email attachment, upload to the forum, printing at a local lab, or web hosting?

I think I'm visualizing a linear work flow of starting with lots of images, sorting,organizing,pro​cessing, then OUT the other side as "finished" images in a commonly usable format that are saved somewhere.

Am I visualizing that incorrectly?