Canon 7D or 6D to buy

Lumens wrote in post #16961499
I just upgraded from 7D to 6D. Absolutely no comparison - go for the 6D! I may keep the 7D but only when I want to capture birds in flight or fast action sports.

Bottom line my first comment about the 7D is that Post Processing should not be 90% noise reduction! The IQ of the 6D is light-years ahead of the 7D.

If you have that much NR on your 7D images, something is really wrong.

As we already know too, any same gen FF is going to produce better results than the same gen APS-C, by around 1 stop or so. However, the 6D is the 3rd FF introduced since the 7D came out, it better be good, and one might even have expected more than what there is.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #16961870
If you have that much NR on your 7D images, something is really wrong.

As we already know too, any same gen FF is going to produce better results than the same gen APS-C, by around 1 stop or so. However, the 6D is the 3rd FF introduced since the 7D came out, it better be good, and one might even have expected more than what there is.

I think what he means is that he spends 90% of his processing time on NR. Generally, I just let grain be grain. The furthest I'll go will be 20 on the lightroom sliders, but that's for shots 12800 and above, I simply wont be bothered with any ISO below that.

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16961889
Virtually everyone will tell you that the 6D offers better image quality than a 7D or any other APS-C camera. On paper and from reviews one can certainly conclude that. My experience is a little different.

I received a 6D last week. First order of business was to determine it's image performance. I put the EF35 f2 IS on it and took some pics. Tried a few different pic styles, but they all looked a bit soft. My software (didn't load Canon's DPP yet) wouldn't read the 6D Raw files so I resorted to comparing highest quality jpegs from the 6D to unprocessed Raw files from my 7D, using the same lens. light, etc.

I decided to do an MFA w/ the 35 on the 6D. It was within an few clicks of zero and after this minor change showed no real improvement in sharpness. I, for comparison, took images of the same resolution target at the same time with my 7D and the 35 mounted and adjusted the distance for the apparent magnification difference.

The 7D Raw file resolved significantly better than the highest quality jpeg from the 6D. I have no explanation for this but there it is. I'm returning the 6D as this does not add up, for me.

Though I am returning the 6D for the lack of dazzle regarding IQ, there are/were several other issues that I didn't care for as well.

Right off I ran into the shutter speed ceiling of 1/4000 sec. This doesn't get a lot of airplay but it represents a full stop lost as compared to 1/8000 sec. Using fast lenses, you'll bump into this often.

The other thing, though more subjective, is the feel of the controls. The 6D feels cheap and kind of flimsy next to the 7D. The navigation cursor and buttons have a soft, "membrane switch" feel about them. The 7D's controls remind me of an old HP calculator, with a solid "click" feel that leaves no doubt.

Anyway, that's my honest evaluation and thoughts on this particular 6D. Not trying to start a war or anything.

With regards to the OP's question, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't buy either right now. As much as I like (love?) my 7D, it's too long in the tooth to buy new now IMO. The 6D was somewhat of a failure for me. I would be interested in what might replace the 7D, and very interested in what will replace the 6D.

Proof pics or it didn't happen

OP, get the 6D. The 7D isn't really an upgrade based on what you shoot, it's images will look identical to what you're getting from your T3i.

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16961889
My experience is a little different.

There's one experience, compared to an unknowable number that says the contrary.

Very best,

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16961889
The other thing, though more subjective, is the feel of the controls. The 6D feels cheap and kind of flimsy next to the 7D.

The buttons I can agree on is less responsive than the 7D. It definitely feels squishy on the 6D but recently selling the 7D, 6D definitely wins in a lot of areas in my own experience. But again for some 7D maybe a better body. Sorry your 6D didn't work out well though.

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16961942
OK. Here's the best result with the 6D. Unfortunately I didn't save any of the 7D pics from the same test. Kind of doesn't matter however as one can easily see this isn't too good. 100% crop.

BTW, I'm perfectly open to the notion that the camera I received was defective in some respect.

So, you're open to saying your camera has a defect yet your previous post was saying how in your opinion there's nothing better about the IQ from your experience based on one (likely faulty focusing) camera?

I can guarantee you from first hand experience, FF cameras for sure give a sharper rendering across the frame. Why didn't you try shooting the 7D in JPEG also? You said that the 6D files wouldn't open in RAW... why not shoot both in JPEG to level the playing field?

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16961942
OK. Here's the best result with the 6D. Unfortunately I didn't save any of the 7D pics from the same test. Kind of doesn't matter however as one can easily see this isn't too good. 100% crop.

BTW, I'm perfectly open to the notion that the camera I received was defective in some respect.

if this is a 100% crop, I am questioning how you are testing your 6D or your interpretation of 100% crop.

ditch photobucket ASAP!

use flickr, and next time, save your results from the 7D, incomplete tests arent helping your case. You're about the only person in this world that has made a claim that the 7D's IQ exceeds the 6D's, so maybe something is lost in translation.

6D for sure

Clearly the focus was off, if you wanted to test the camera sensor capabilities, you should stop the lens down a little, maybe f6 or f8. And then compare.

Now as far as focus accuracy, it sounds like maybe that needed some adjustment.

vertigo235 wrote in post #16962197
Clearly the focus was off, if you wanted to test the camera sensor capabilities, you should stop the lens down a little, maybe f6 or f8. And then compare.

Now as far as focus accuracy, it sounds like maybe that needed some adjustment.

This.

You should also be using MF to take away the AF as a variable if you're testing the IQ of the sensor/lens.

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16962158
This Pbucket image certainly lost something in the translation, I agree. The one on my desktop is considerably better, but still not great. You are also missing the point in that I am not disputing yours and the rest of the world's claim to 6D superiority for IQ. I'm showing one example.

Regarding testing:
Tripod mounted, 5.75' from target to focal plane (50xfocal length), used a tape to be sure I was square to the target on every axis, used 2 sec delay timer, lens set at f2 (wide open)

I'm going to take my lens to a camera store along with my 7D and test another 6D. If it shows better IQ, I'll probably buy it.

I want to love the thing, but I'm getting off to a rocky start

the test chart you shown was designed to be shot with the entire frame within the arrows. The 50x focal length is for MFA purposes, not for resolution tests, and at 5.75', you've got to have a really big chart to fill the frame, that's why I'm questioning methodology for an IQ type test. The image is either horribly tilted on the wall, or more likely, the tripod is not level. Unless you're using a really super tripod, I'de skip a 2 second timer and go to 10 second, as it may not be enough to reduce vibrations.

it would be a good idea to test the same lenses at F8 to avoid DOF issues. Shoot for a weekend as you normally would, go through a few hundred raws, and it'll be clear as day the differences between the cameras. IMO, that's the way to test cameras, and test charts are last resort ways to benchmark camera/lenses. I dont really bother with it unless I get consistently bad results, and all settings good, such as ample shutter speeds (1/2FL if handheld) or stable platforms.

Note that the 6D sold where you linked to is the N version that does not have WiFi or GPS

I was referring to the OPs link

Charlie wrote in post #16962377
it would be a good idea to test the same lenses at F8 to avoid DOF issues. Shoot for a weekend as you normally would, go through a few hundred raws, and it'll be clear as day the differences between the cameras. IMO, that's the way to test cameras, and test charts are last resort ways to benchmark camera/lenses. I dont really bother with it unless I get consistently bad results, and all settings good, such as ample shutter speeds (1/2FL if handheld) or stable platforms.

This. I'll never understand why people feel compelled to shoot charts, then again, I've never had to MFA a lens and now I don't have to worry about it at all since I shoot nothing but manual lenses at the moment anyway...

corndog cabernet wrote in post #16962426
You apparently missed the MFA part of my post. This was from that. You apparently also missed the using a tape measure to square the camera to the chart part of my post.
You apparently missed the relative IQ between the 6D and 7D part of my post, making the absolute part of the test irrelevant.

Oh yeah? Lenses look better at f8? MFAs are done wide open.

For the record, I wanted to see if the camera was OK without putting a lot of frames on it as I didn't feel like it was my camera yet and wanted to be courteous to B&H if I were to return it.

Fair enough on the MFA testing, but you still should've taken the camera out and really tested it for a weekend or more. Putting a few frames on a camera isn't going to hurt it in any way, that's why they have a 30 day return policy, so you can be sure you're getting a product that you like (which I still believe you would have had you given it a chance).

You also haven't mentioned the DOF differences between crop and FF... a little tiny variance in focus at f/2 even at 35mm will make a photo soft.

emas wrote in post #16962405
Note that the 6D sold where you linked to is the N version that does not have WiFi or GPS

I had no idea there was such a thing, interesting.