Scooping an event photographer

One of my hobbies is to run hunting retriever trials and when I am there I'll often take my camera and get some images of folks and their dogs that are also at the event. I make a few bucks selling to people that check out my website for their pictures.

Well, there are some National events where there is an official event photographer there. If there's an official photographer, I keep my camera put away, but there are often some people shooting personal pictures. At a recent event, however, one acquaintance took a lot of pictures, got some positive feedback on Facebook... then set up a site selling her images for far cheaper than the event photographer.

Two questions: 1) is this just tacky, unethical, or no big deal. I don't think there was any "exclusive" agreement between the event photographer and the event. and 2) I'm considering putting a bid in to do a future event of this nature. Are "exclusive" agreements typical and how do you enforce it to prevent someone from doing something like this and cutting out potential sales?

Official Event Photographer is such a mis-guided description for the most part. In most cases, the tagged Official is the person or company who has an affiliation with the event or the event organizers. They more than likely have a deal struck between them that includes sponsor announcements or some sort of mention in print media, to help point peoples attention to the endorsed photographer. Typically, an official gets more access privileges than Joe Citizen.

1) No its not tacky to take images at an event where there is an "official" person working.
1a) It is tacky though, to have deep discounted images available. Now this obviously appeals to the buyer, but once upon a time, non professionals were kind of considerate of working professionals and kept prices in a range. This gap has grown dramatically over the years. It's very puzzling to see images from an event, on sale at an Image Hosting site, for the default $0.27. But it's a free market!

2)Don't bother and you answered your own question. You cannot police it to the extent that makes your "exclusivity" worth anything. I don't know your circumstances, but if I am reading your post right, are you thinking of paying them for exclusivity? That would be a waste of money!

roodig thanks for your response. Right in line with what I was thinking.

....and I used the wrong word for the event I'm considering... Not bidding in terms of paying money, but basically filling out an application to see if its accepted. I know I can do a good job of getting great images, but for the most part from what I see, people are happy with point and shoot shots if they are free and shy away from paying for quality work.

Duckdog wrote in post #17011923
roodig thanks for your response. Right in line with what I was thinking.

....and I used the wrong word for the event I'm considering... Not bidding in terms of paying money, but basically filling out an application to see if its accepted. I know I can do a good job of getting great images, but for the most part from what I see, people are happy with point and shoot shots if they are free and shy away from paying for quality work.

...I've covered events both as the official (paid) photographer and as a freelance photographer. When you are the official photographer: you get the traffic to the website, you get promoted by the organiser, and you get the sales. If you freelance: you generally get zero traffic and even if you undercut the official photographer you don't get the sales because people don't know you exist. Don't underestimate the value of being the official guy. It simply isn't worth the effort trying to undercut the official photographer: I can almost guarantee they hardly make any sales.

"Ethics" isn't something I worry about in my particular slice of the market because the market down here is so small I'm friends with all the other event photographers. If I'm not the official guy, then I generally cover an event either for fun or editorially, and that quite often can end up turning into a paid gig. I You don't screw over your friends, and you don't risk upsetting potential future clients. (Call it self-policing ethics!)

I wouldn't put your camera away if I were you at these sorts of events unless there is a policy against shooting. I don't pitch for exclusivity. Its hard to control that sort of thing when you are shooting events that cover the entire length of the Wellington Waterfront. You can't afford to be scared of the competition at these public events. you just need to be better. Focus on being able to deliver something that other photographers can't do, and having a full proof system of delivering images quickly and painlessly to both your clients and to make sales to the public.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I have been the hired gun and had people trying to get their own shots and I have been a spectator that shot around ( for my own use) the hired guy.

When I'm the hired gun I frankly don't worry much about what anyone else is doing as long as the stay the hell out of my way. If you do get im my road, expect to literally be walked over. You can go and do whatever the heck you like from wherever you are allowed, nothing I can do about that but Do not interfere or play silly buggers with what I'm doing.

Some people that think they are being clever and getting pics without haveing to buy mine are never going to buy my pics and their own pride and ego will see they never buy anything. Of course there are the people on the sidelines who never get in your way and are very respectful that just think of themselves as happy snappers that will buy your pics. Some of these rather well equipped people have been far and away my best clients.

The attitude of the 2 clearly define which catergory they are in. The clowns look at you sideways and are just sneaky and have an attitude, and many times I have heard them telling other people that they are getting just as good shots as the professional and offereing them to people for nothing or cheaper.
The others might ask you if they can take pics where they are or to tell them if they are in your way or are otherwise just friendly and sociable and lerely taking pics they thing you may not bother with and because they enjoy taking pics.
Two very different and easily definable attitudes.
Guess which one I invite to come stand next to me in restricted areas and which ones I tell to pi$$ off!

I have also been to things with my kids and watched the official shooters fumble round like chooks on a greasy plate and clearly have no idea what they are doing. If they can't get what I want, then I know I can so will do so. I give respect where it is due and if they clearly know what they are doing I will respect that. If they are just another wannabe that got a camera for Christmas and obviously thier pics are going to be dissapointing, then I'll make sure I get memories I'll be happy with.

I have had run in's with this type a few times that come and tell me I can't take pics when they have walked past 10 other people taking pics that they have said nothing to. Often the pretenders know when they are outgunned and who's doing it and get funny about it.

The one thing I have NEVER done and would never do is try to undercut the other shooter no matter how inept they were. I have taken shots for my own kids and those of their friends but I would never try to do them as I would the official shooter. Basicaly, I'm not interested. I'm there for my kids/ team not everyone elses and selling online is a hopelessly poor way of selling and I know the returns are not worth the effort. If I can't throw my whole onsite setup at something, it's just not worth doing.

That aside, it is poor form to try and undercut other shooters. It is insulting to the other person, ( even if they don't deserve a whole load of respect) it's insulting to your own work and it's bloody detrimental to the industry and the very thing that makes it so difficult to get a decent return on your time covering these things.
Even if I did try to compete with the hired incompetent gun, greatest chances are their pricing would be commensurate with their ( lack) of skill level and I would be asking a lot more for my pics than they would theirs.

I did do this once at an event where the organisers booked myself and another crew. They were nice enough people and we got on well but clearly I had more resources than them. Their prices were cheaper than mine but I was happy enough with my pics and pricing and so were the clients. We heard multiple wispers and were told a couple of times over the weekend that our prices were dearer but the shots were worth it.

Compairing notes with the other crew at the end of the event, they said they made slightly more than I did ( within $200) but I was happy with what we took under the circumstances which was well within the ball park ( lower end) of what I would expect and that I could effectively compete at a higher price than them.

One thing I'd ask with this though is WHY you want to do it?
If it's for Chits and giggles, fine. If you have any remotely serious intentions of making a dollar out of this, think carefully.
If you plan to sell online then forget it now. You'll be lucky to make lunch let alone gas money.
Also I wonder what numbers you have to start with in people to sell to. If you are selling pics of Dogs, what is going to look different about the pics at this event to the pics they got from the last one or a year ago? I think this would be like when I did cars. Unless they have a crash or get a major new sponsor, the cars look the same from one event to the other so it's only getting that killer often fluke shot that they would even be possibly interested in.

When you say they are happy with free, that's pretty much par for the course. It's also your biggest competition.

One thing that I looked at years ago with dogs was setting up a small studio area with a background and lights and getting high quality shots like that. Few people had those and I felt it was a niche that may pay off based on the people I questioned about the idea. I never did it because I went into horses instead of dogs but maybe it'sw something that would work for you even for a while till you saturated the market.

Just bear in mind with covering these things, It's one thing to make tiddly wink money from happy snaps, it's something very different to get a decent hourly rate and pay your expenses when you are doing it as a real business venture.

Good luck with it.

Perhaps you can tell us what the contract states?

It is always best to ask.

Duckdog wrote in post #17011923
roodig thanks for your response. Right in line with what I was thinking.

....and I used the wrong word for the event I'm considering... Not bidding in terms of paying money, but basically filling out an application to see if its accepted. I know I can do a good job of getting great images, but for the most part from what I see, people are happy with point and shoot shots if they are free and shy away from paying for quality work.

If that's the case (Application submit), most times they will require you to be a media outlet and show some sort of proof (like a media website, not your own Smugmug). I have tried this as a freelancer and I have a low strike rate of application success, because I am not affiliated with a media outlet.

It's such an open ended arrangement these days. Every single situation and event is unique. In my experience, here is the different ways into an event and the potential success attached to them. I have been in most of these scenarios.

• Paid Professional - No public sale allowed. NEVER DONE THIS
  Paid by the event organizer to be there. Covered what they wanted. Not allowed to sell to the public. Allowed to use images in portfolio. Fully paid by organizer and a commercial arrangement is in place for images use.
  
  
• Paid Professional - Public sale allowed. DONE THIS ONCE
  I was paid by the event organizer to be there. I covered what they want me to cover. I was allowed to sell to the public. I was allowed to use images in my portfolio. Fully paid by organizer and a commercial arrangement in place for images use.
  
  
• Assignment Professional - NEVER DONE THIS. Although I was under contract with a company before they shut the doors. I was about to start covering NCAA Football but they went out of business right before the season started.
  Paid/Non-paid by a media outlet (AP, Getty, SI, Guitar World, etc.). On assignment to cover the event. Images are prepared for sale by outlet to other media outlets or similar. I have seen images used on personal website folios, so I assume most cases they can be used by the photographer.
  
  
• Assignment Professional/Non-Professional - DONE THIS A COUPLE OF TIMES
  Unpaid by media outlet (newspaper/magazine) to cover an event. This is sometimes the best way into a medium to large event. The trade off is that you may/may not be able to sell images publicly and you have a very low to no chance of getting anything better than a photo credit for whatever media (print or digital) outlet your images are used in. Most cases you will be able to use your images in a portfolio as a brag tag. This type of coverage is becoming more and more "acceptable" for start up photographers, looking for a "brag" above the normal, and also because media outlets don't need to pay for a Paid Pro or Assignment Pro/Non Pro. There are tones of photographers willing to "give it up". If it makes your business brain squeal that your giving up images and not getting paid for it, contact a newspaper and ask if you can shoot an event for them. They will require (a pre-determined image count) and use them editorially only.
  
  
• Freelance Professional - MOST OF MY EVENT WORK
  Unpaid by organizer. You incur some/all expenses to attend the event and cover whatever you want. You have an affiliation with the organizer, they promote you and give you restricted/un-restricted access compared to everyone else. (This may not be the case if there is an Assignment Professional there. The organizer MAY very well let them in as well if the images may end up in national magazine. They typically will not be announced on the sponsor callout though). You have the right to sell to the public and can show in portfolio. In most cases, I also get a release signed by the athletes (I have had the paragraph added to the event waiver when they sign).
  
  
• Freelance Professional/Non-Professional - THE OTHER SMALL AMOUNT OF MY EVENT WORK
  Unpaid by organizer, but they know your there. You incur all expenses to attend the event and cover whatever you want. You have the right to sell to the public and can show in portfolio. In most cases. You hand out business cards and hope for the best. This is the 2 star GWC approach. This typical set-up would be like a gathering or school reunion, or maybe a local band.
  
  
• GWC - Startup
  Paid by no one. You cover the event or until your sick of being there. You put your images on some form of web portal and let the world pick at them until you realize "hey, he/she/they stole my photo!". Some car salesman grad contacts you and offers to credit line your image in his fortune 500 company because he has no media budget. Yep, I was there once or twice. Also, aunt Jenny says you should turn pro because your images are the best she's ever seen (outside of cousin Kathy, who done Bernice's wedding last summer)
  

Great summary. I think I've done each at least once. Part of the GWC in today's world also simply dumps his memory card onto Facebook for the world to enjoy as they see fit. No strings attached. Have at 'em! Most are fair quality, but he got lucky on a few and with some straightening and cropping, look pretty good.

Thanks for everyone's comments. This has been a great discussion and given me a lot to think about.

I shoot a lot of class reunions and similar events. My contract says that I am the "official photographer" and that others may not sell images of the event. Over the years, this has never been a problem and everyone seems to understand. Often there will be several people photographing behind me when I take group photos. I never object and it has never effected my sales. Often I sell more 8x10s of a group than there are people in it. However, I do not wait on others to make their photos. I smile, be polite, and keep moving. It's my job to get the shots and that's what I do.

It could be different for retriever trials, but my understanding of sighthound lure coursing trials is that the official photographer isn't paid, but is shooting speculatively. The "officialness" likely ends at the club providing entrants with the URL for the photographer's site. I've only shot one trial as the main guy, but will nearly always shoot my own dogs and my breeders'.

I've always been of two minds when it comes to selling photos in that case. On the one hand, I think it's disrespectful to undercut the pro photographer, or even sell at all. If enough people do that, the pros won't find it as profitable to come out, and some will stop. I don't think it would take much, either. The pro at our recent national trial said he was spending ~$2500 to be out there for the week, and was clearly antsy about how much he'd earn when I, and several others, were also out at the field.

The other side of the coin is that it's incumbent on the pro to actually make it worth buying their picture. If they can't be demonstrably better than I am, with a 7D and a 3rd party lens, that's a problem for them to solve.

As far as exclusivity, my bet is the club would tell you they don't have that power, if your trials are anything like a lure trial. I don't think a club would (or could) dictate that owners not take photos of their own dogs. The owners, especially breeders with a large number of entries, might not stand for it, and the clubs can't take that risk. If they get even just a bit fewer entries and fees, the dogs will regularly score fewer points, and the cycle will feedback on itself.

rgs wrote in post #17019417
I shoot a lot of class reunions and similar events. My contract says that I am the "official photographer" and that others may not sell images of the event. Over the years, this has never been a problem and everyone seems to understand. Often there will be several people photographing behind me when I take group photos. I never object and it has never effected my sales. Often I sell more 8x10s of a group than there are people in it. However, I do not wait on others to make their photos. I smile, be polite, and keep moving. It's my job to get the shots and that's what I do.

great discussion here, thank you all for sharing.

RGS, I was just looking at your reunion services and have a couple of questions.

You sell CDs of images, is that all of the images? what resolution?

You state "No minimums, upfront deposits or other charges – ever!" does that mean that all your reunion work is speculative?

okay, three questions, OU or OK State?

hes gone wrote in post #17033560
=he's gone;17033560]great discussion here, thank you all for sharing.

RGS, I was just looking at your reunion services and have a couple of questions.

You sell CDs of images, is that all of the images? what resolution?

You state "No minimums, upfront deposits or other charges – ever!" does that mean that all your reunion work is speculative?

okay, three questions, OU or OK State?

I have always made all of my money on sales and never charged an additional fee or asked for a guarantee. What I am really selling is large group photos - candids and table pictures are a miniscule part of my profit but I do them because I'm there. If a class does not want group photos (very rare), I won't take the job. Having done reunions this way for about 30 years, I have found it very reliably successful and don't even think of it as shooting on spec. I leave each event with large numbers of pre-paid prints and DVDs sold.

The CD started out as just digital files. It has now become a DVD that has a DVD slide show, a mp2 slideshow (better quality than the DVD version), low res and full res digital files with permission to print for the original purchaser only. I make almost all sales the night of the reunion. Over the years I have been doing this, there have never been large amounts of print sales afterwards so the DVD has not hurt print sales - it has just increased my profit and decreased expenses (my lab bills are smaller).

THUNDER