Wedding Venue requires granting non-personal rights usage from clients...?

I've never seen something like this before. Wondering how others handle it. Basically, was emailed by one of my clients that the venue where they are going to have their wedding has the following clause in their contract.

"USE OF IMAGES: You give (the venue in question) the right to use any images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials. You grant (the venue in question) permission to have access to the images from your photographer at any time."

Personally, I believe this is a non-issue, since my client doesn't legally have the right to give away the rights to their wedding images, as they are specifically granted personal usage rights, but I want to make sure this is the case.

While I don't foresee this being a problem, I also don't want problems in the future, for my clients or myself. Part of me wonders if I can be stingy on the use of the word 'access' - something like saying 'sure, you can click thru to my website and view small resolution images (to constitute access), but if you want them for non-personal use, you have to buy the rights at $100 per image'. My belief is, I don't have a contract with the venue, but again, I care about my clientele and want to foster good relationships, etc.

Mistabernie wrote in post #17029635
My belief is, I don't have a contract with the venue, but again, I care about my clientele and want to foster good relationships, etc.

That sounds kind of creepy on the part of the venue.

It'll be interesting to hear what the lawyers have to say about this. To me it sounds like your client could potentially be in a sticky situation since they'd be agreeing to something that they can't deliver (unless you agree to go along).

Well, it is so badly written that it is extremely ambiguous as to what they mean. It could easily be interpreted as:

"USE OF IMAGES: You give (the venue in question) the right to use any images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials.

This could easily be just the model release rights, I presume that you have an almost identical clause in YOUR contract, where they give you permission to use the images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials. If you don't and you use the images commercially you would be risking problems. So, lets assume that is what the clients are being asked for there (legally that is an easy argument to make, as they don't have any other rights to give away)

You grant (the venue in question) permission to have access to the images from your photographer at any time."

Again, no problem, the client is just giving them permission and your contact details so that they have a means of access to obtain your images if they like them. It doesn't mention anywhere "free access", so that is easily covered too. They have full access to them at your normal commercial rates, and the couple have signed a model release giving their permission for such use.

For what they have there, you can easily charge for the use of the images. I don't know if the venue thinks they will have the right to free images, but if they try and get heavy they don't have a leg to stand on, legally. The couple can only sign that they are happy for the images to be used, they have no other rights to sign over to them, other than controlling commercial use of their likeness. So, anything else the venue may have had in mind is moot. Legally, there is only one meaning that makes sense, if that isn't the one the venue intended, well tough.

You have no contract with the venue, so have no agreement to live up to, the couple only have to give them access to use of the images, no mention is made of "free".

The right approach is for your bridal client to recognize that your images have value, and that granting a license to the venue has a value too. It should be easy for her to understand that the venue is asking for something for free that she is paying you for and that the venue usually pays. Even if this is only in the bride's contract with the venue, it clearly is meant to be a rights grab for the photographer.

I would simply increase the fee to your client by $500 for the value of the use of your images by the venue. She should then get a $500 discount off her venue fee or get them to waive this ambiguous and ridiculous license.

sandpiper wrote in post #17029747
Well, it is so badly written that it is extremely ambiguous as to what they mean. It could easily be interpreted as:

"USE OF IMAGES: You give (the venue in question) the right to use any images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials.

This could easily be just the model release rights, I presume that you have an almost identical clause in YOUR contract, where they give you permission to use the images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials. If you don't and you use the images commercially you would be risking problems. So, lets assume that is what the clients are being asked for there (legally that is an easy argument to make, as they don't have any other rights to give away)

You grant (the venue in question) permission to have access to the images from your photographer at any time."

Again, no problem, the client is just giving them permission and your contact details so that they have a means of access to obtain your images if they like them. It doesn't mention anywhere "free access", so that is easily covered too. They have full access to them at your normal commercial rates, and the couple have signed a model release giving their permission for such use.

For what they have there, you can easily charge for the use of the images. I don't know if the venue thinks they will have the right to free images, but if they try and get heavy they don't have a leg to stand on, legally. The couple can only sign that they are happy for the images to be used, they have no other rights to sign over to them, other than controlling commercial use of their likeness. So, anything else the venue may have had in mind is moot. Legally, there is only one meaning that makes sense, if that isn't the one the venue intended, well tough.

You have no contract with the venue, so have no agreement to live up to, the couple only have to give them access to use of the images, no mention is made of "free".

I think this best explains it. the contract doesn't say free use of images, it merely says access to the images. the bride can give them access but unless the price is right they still cannot use them. I am sure that she can explain this to the venue and they would most likely remove that part or note not to attempt to use her images.

"USE OF IMAGES: You give (the venue in question) the right to use any images from the event on our website, or in marketing, social networking and/or promotional materials."
I'm reading it like the venue is asking for permission from the bride to use the photos from her wedding for their promotional uses. A model release essentially, nothing more.

"You grant (the venue in question) permission to have access to the images from your photographer at any time."
Reads to me like they're asking the bride for her permission to contact YOU, the photographer, to get access to the photos from her wedding....FROM YOU. No where does it say they will get the photos for free. If they do contact you to access her photos I would arrange a protected online gallery and if they want to use one of her photos then charge them accordingly.

I don't see an issue arising with this. I would talk it over with the bride though so that you're both on the same page. You probably wouldn't want her giving the venue her personal access code to her private online gallery, but instead if they came to her about it to send them to you and you would let them see them (she's granting them permission to access them anyway). It's in both of yours interests to do it that way, I think. This way by YOU giving them access the venue will only get photos of the wedding at the venue. They don't need to see the rest of them.

The above is one thing I was thinking of (I may have touched on that in the OP). Sure, you can have access to view them, but you don't get them for free. I guess the signed contract is the B&G saying 'sure, you can use images of our likeness from our wedding for these purposes' which could be a type of model release, but the venue would ultimately need permission from me to do anything at all with them, and that permission would cost them if it's for advertising purposes.

The photographer (you) has no contract with the venue, and the Bride/Groom cannot sign away what they do not first have.

The copyright is yours at the moment your snap the shutter. Unless assigned to someone else on a specific set of terms, it remains with you. The B&G can only assign or sub-assign what they have acquired; the venue cannot make commercial use of the shots without an agreement with you.

The exception would be where you shoot as a "work for hire" and the B&G have the copyright on the images -- but that's not the usual circumstance for an engagement of this sort.

Yeah, given all the above, I feel like I can just proceed as expected and work with the B&G and let them know that it just means that they will grant her access to view the images. Looks like I'll be watermarking that gallery (I normally do anyway, heh)..

tickerguy wrote in post #17031219
The photographer (you) has no contract with the venue, and the Bride/Groom cannot sign away what they do not first have.

This is exactly right. Just be sure to include in your fine print some language to the effect that your clients (bride & groom) can not extend use of the images to any third party. That should be a part of any contract, anyway.

wouldn't you want to give your images to the venue for free (web sized and watermarked) - its' an exposure option for you. why do you want to charge the venue extra if you can build a relationship with them?

fontanka wrote in post #17031510
wouldn't you want to give your images to the venue for free (web sized and watermarked) - its' an exposure option for you. why do you want to charge the venue extra if you can build a relationship with them?

In this case it sounds like they are trying to taking advantage of the photographer, you don't want relationships with just anyone, if they do not respect you

fontanka wrote in post #17031510
wouldn't you want to give your images to the venue for free (web sized and watermarked) - its' an exposure option for you. why do you want to charge the venue extra if you can build a relationship with them?

I wouldn't mind giving my web-sized watermarked images to the venue for free. What I'm not interested in doing is granting them carte blanche rights to photos they have no rights to claim the rights to (if that makes sense).

Without this clause, if the events organizer saw some of the photos and was like 'Hi, I'm so and so from this venue, and I saw your fantastic photos of this bride and groom at our venue. Would it be alright if we used image 123.jpg for advertising purposes?' then I'd be like 'Thanks for the interest! I'm flattered that you feel the quality is of the level that you would like to use for advertising. Let me confirm that it's okay with the happy couple and I'll get back to you', and once I did I wouldn't have a problem providing an acceptable usable image. I just feel like this clause is problematic for a few reasons.

At the same time, I'm really starting to agree that it legally has nothing to do with me, and nothing in it compels me to do anything except provide a link to the vendor where they can see the 600x400 watermarked versions of the images I've taken of the happy couple's special day, where they can purchase the rights for any images they'd like to use for commercial purposes if they want them larger / unwatermarked - but not for free.

That's true.
But you do realize they might ask for these images from the couple (high rez etc) regardless and there is a huge chance the couple will provide (with no bad intention tow you, but just because they can). My point is to not worry about what's in agreement created between the couple and the other vendor as it doesn't affect you and you can not control it.

fontanka wrote in post #17031751
That's true.
But you do realize they might ask for these images from the couple (high rez etc) regardless and there is a huge chance the couple will provide (with no bad intention tow you, but just because they can). My point is to not worry about what's in agreement created between the couple and the other vendor as it doesn't affect you and you can not control it.

That's why I suggested talking with the bride so that they're both on the same page. IF the venue approaches the bride and groom after the event they should forward that request to the photographer. This way the photographer has control of which images get released/shown to the venue.

This can be spun to be in the best interest of the bride and groom as well by simply explaining that in the event the venue contacts them after the fact and they forward the request to the photographer the venue will ONLY see the photos that were taken in the venue in question, not every photo from their wedding.