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Thread started 14 Jul 2014 (Monday) 17:58
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B&H not honoring the advertised price?

 
mikeinctown
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Jul 15, 2014 14:52 |  #16

BobDawg wrote in post #17033887 (external link)
Stop playing the victim and playing your sad song. If they had a good deal on something I'm sure you're not going to say "Oh, i'm going to pay more else where because it's B&H selling it".

Maybe you are one of the type who would drive 20 miles to save $.04 on a gallon of gas because it is cheaper. There are a LOT of people, myself included, that will and do shop elsewhere after they have had an unpleasant experience.

There was an easy way for B&H to make it right and they failed. They claim that they could not sell an item for less than $x because of MAP. Well they could have explained this to the seller and told him they will credit his account for $x toward his next purchase. Customer satisfaction still means something these days. For example, I have had nothing but good experiences from Adorama and would pay a couple extra bucks for something because I know that they attampt to make things right when the customer has an issue.




  
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D ­ Thompson
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Jul 15, 2014 15:09 |  #17

LostViet408 wrote in post #17033866 (external link)
I agree with some of you that they should have honored it since it was their mistake. If it was in person, I bet it would've been a different situation and they would've honored it.

I'd venture to guess had you actually gone to B&H the shelf price would've shown $299.99.

B&H has a forum member here - henryp that you might want to contact or maybe he'll see this thread.


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henryp
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Jul 15, 2014 15:15 |  #18

LostViet408 wrote in post #17031951 (external link)
So I'm not sure where I should post this, but the issue here is that B&H advertised the price for the product that I bought last night at 255.99$ and later this morning they emailed me saying there was a price error and that the price is 299.99$. B&H said per their terms with the manufacturer, they are unable to offer that price.

I'd be happy to look into this but in order to do so I'd need your order number or at the very least the item you purchased.

Unfortunately we're seeing more US distributors imposing unilateral price restrictions on authorized retailers. These restrictions set limits below which we may not go for the bottom price of various items, often cameras and lenses. A retailer who violates a distributor's unilateral price rules does so at the peril of swiftly applied draconian retribution.

Since I know it may be asked, MAP rules set the minimum advertized price; unilateral price rules set the minimum permitted selling price.

mikeinctown wrote in post #17034003 (external link)
There was an easy way for B&H to make it right and they failed. They claim that they could not sell an item for less than $x because of MAP. Well they could have explained this to the seller and told him they will credit his account for $x toward his next purchase.

Based on the OP's description this is not an MAP issue but a unilateral price issue and most unilateral price contracts I know of specifically prohibit exactly the kind of workaround you propose.


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BobDawg
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Jul 15, 2014 15:19 |  #19

mikeinctown wrote in post #17034003 (external link)
Maybe you are one of the type who would drive 20 miles to save $.04 on a gallon of gas because it is cheaper. There are a LOT of people, myself included, that will and do shop elsewhere after they have had an unpleasant experience.

There was an easy way for B&H to make it right and they failed. They claim that they could not sell an item for less than $x because of MAP. Well they could have explained this to the seller and told him they will credit his account for $x toward his next purchase. Customer satisfaction still means something these days. For example, I have had nothing but good experiences from Adorama and would pay a couple extra bucks for something because I know that they attampt to make things right when the customer has an issue.

If one unpleasant experience rattles your feathers that much that you won't shop there, you need to toughen up. Granted it depends on what the 'unpleasant experience' is, but in a case like this where the price tag was wrong, you're really going to whine about it? No harm came to you, you didn't lose any money, your photography isn't going to suffer because of it, etc...

It's like when Razer posted that 90% coupon and honored it. What came of it? People that got the coupon was happy and those that didn't were pissed. Because they did that, is everyone running to Razer and buying their product because they're such an honest company? No.

There's lemon products out there, a customer service rep having a bad day, etc... people just need to stop whining and count your blessings that you can even afford the stuff you own. No one is perfect.


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ptcanon3ti
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Jul 15, 2014 15:21 |  #20

BobDawg wrote in post #17033887 (external link)
Stop playing the victim and playing your sad song. If they had a good deal on something I'm sure you're not going to say "Oh, i'm going to pay more else where because it's B&H selling it".

I don't think he is "playing the victim and playing your sad song" at all. He is just relating what happened. How do you know what he is going to say the next time he needs to make a purchase?


Is it good to make judgements and assumptions about people you don't know? Probably not.


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klr.b
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Jul 15, 2014 15:33 |  #21

BobDawg wrote in post #17033887 (external link)
Stop playing the victim and playing your sad song. If they had a good deal on something I'm sure you're not going to say "Oh, i'm going to pay more else where because it's B&H selling it".

I've done this. I've had terrible experiences with Adorama in the past. Now, even if there's a good deal, I'll shop elsewhere. If someone asks me for advice on products, I'll point them to B&H. If they ask about Adorama, I tell them my stories.


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tkbslc
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Jul 15, 2014 15:43 |  #22

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17033828 (external link)
2 things:

- payment was made already, so the question is "the person already struck a deal with you and paid", do you refund the amount and say, "you owe me $270 more"?
- the mistake was a 15% mistake, so the better analogy here was that you listed it at $1530

Okay, fine, you hit a 5 instead of 8 and you realize after the seller has paid you that they only gave you $1500 and you were expecting $1800. Do you ship the lens or do you refund their money?


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tkbslc
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Jul 15, 2014 15:47 |  #23

mpix345 wrote in post #17033993 (external link)
I am sort of disgusted by the attitude that says it's OK to take advantage of a mistake made by a retailer. .

Agreed.

How would the same people react if they found that they accidentally paid the retailer too much?


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TeamSpeed
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Jul 15, 2014 16:17 |  #24

tkbslc wrote in post #17034124 (external link)
Okay, fine, you hit a 5 instead of 8 and you realize after the seller has paid you that they only gave you $1500 and you were expecting $1800. Do you ship the lens or do you refund their money?

Depends on my store policies I have drafted for online transactions. The answer is different if I have a store, because I would have to have policies for both customers and my establishment to follow. If my policies are clear about pricing errors, and how I remedy it (and most likely I would have some sort of coupon or discount code I would issue, things like that), I would follow that. Also as a business, you have to be very, very careful about your advertised specials. You don't just fat finger an amount, you would checks and balances in place to make sure the specials you post are documented and reviewed. If a mistake still makes it through, you don't make the consumer pay for it, you change your policies and procedures internally to make sure they don't happen again.

As a private seller, I have more options available, because I don't have any terms to adhere to, I don't have to follow consumer and FTC laws, and I don't have sales in volume to make up costs where there are misadvertised prices. As a private seller, I would indeed back out for that large an amount. A business has much more responsibility to establish business practices, and clearly advertise them, but also needs to keep their customer base, or potential customer base, happy with some incentives and guarantees.

Interestingly, I am both. I buy and sell privately for my hobbies, but also have an online store where I manufacture and sell Invisicords and related products/custom projects. I have had to eat all kinds of costs, due to my own mistakes (not pricing but many others that are just as silly), as well as issues on part of my customers. At the end of the year, it just becomes part of my P&L statements for taxes. I lose about 8-12% due to mistakes and consumer whimsical decisions each year, and that adds up to about $1600-2400 missed revenue a year just for that. It doesn't feel good, but is part of doing business. You adjust accordingly.

Also to add to my experience, my wife was a store/regional manager for a very large shoe chain, and I was very aware of their policies as well to pricing mistakes. The standard rule was that if there was a pricing error, you honored that price for the sales already made, but you quickly corrected it, or took something down until it could be corrected to stem the loss. If there were pending sales where money had not yet changed hands, you would explain and remedy the mistake, and would not honor the erroneous price, unless the customer was a jerk and pushed the issue. One very irate customer about a bad deal could cost you much more later than a single loss on a sale to that customer.

In this particular case, you advertised a $299 item for $255, and somebody bought it. You honor the price and correct the sale price for other customers. You don't cancel the sale, refund the money, and just say "sorry". That at the very minimum is poor customer service. I am not sure if Henry still frequents these boards for B&H or not, but if so, I am sure he, like Helen does for Adorama, will address this in one way or another.


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Maelochs
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Jul 15, 2014 16:47 |  #25

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17034188 (external link)
The standard rule was that if there was a pricing error, you honored that price for the sales already made, but you quickly corrected it, or took something down until it could be corrected to stem the loss. If there were pending sales where money had not yet changed hands, you would explain and remedy the mistake, and would not honor the erroneous price, unless the customer was a jerk and pushed the issue. One very irate customer about a bad deal could cost you much more later than a single loss on a sale to that customer.

In this particular case, you advertised a $299 item for $255, and somebody bought it. You honor the price and correct the sale price for other customers. You don't cancel the sale, refund the money, and just say "sorry". That at the very minimum is poor customer service. I am not sure if Henry still frequents these boards for B&H or not, but if so, I am sure he, like Helen does for Adorama, will address this in one way or another.

This.

B&H should have at least offered to charge full price and issue a credit (in case the lowest sale price was fixed by a distributor) or made the sale and eaten the loss--imo. Why they didn't I don't know so I won't go judging anyone. None of us knows the whole story.

By the way, if I overpay I Do expect the business to refund any overpayment. I haven't been in business for a long time, but that it was and how it should be--again imo.

Reasoning is simple---even if a customer knows he/she made a mistake, there will forever be bad feelings, and bad feelings are bad business in a competitive market. And If I made the mistake and expect the customer to pay for it ... same as above but magnified.




  
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TeamSpeed
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Jul 15, 2014 16:55 |  #26

I agree on the overpayment topic too. In fact I had one of the most positive experiences the other day. We went out to eat, and we used a coupon for a buy 1 get 1 deal. I didn't pay attention to the overall bill and went up to pay it, and sat back down with my family to finish up the meal. About 5 minutes later, the checkout gal came to our table and asked to see our receipt. She looked and said, "I thought so, I didn't take off the discount, I will be right back", and brought cash back for the delta. That was just amazing in this day and age, and I appreciated it. I operate my business on the same exact principle. I often have people overpay for their orders (choose a custom length instead of a preset length, or choose international shipping vs Canada shipping, etc), and I will always refund the overage with a note. I have more happy customers because of that, and that is worth more to me than the extra profit.

If more companies would pay more attention to customer service and happy customers than they do to their bottom line, the market as a whole would be a better place. It used to be that a company was more proud of how they looked to the consumer market than they did to their shareholders, and that attitude actually will do more for the profitability long-term, than short term attention to the bottom line.

Anyways, whatever was done is done, hopefully this isn't a trend. :(


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D ­ Thompson
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Jul 15, 2014 16:59 |  #27

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17034188 (external link)
I am not sure if Henry still frequents these boards for B&H or not, but if so, I am sure he, like Helen does for Adorama, will address this in one way or another.

Go about 6 posts up from yours. ;):)


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Jul 15, 2014 17:16 |  #28

D Thompson wrote in post #17034280 (external link)
Go about 6 posts up from yours. ;):)

Yup, missed that. I really dislike the map and other price fixing methodologies going on, much of it just feels like it should be illegal. Collusion and price fixing is what it all sounds like to me, and eliminates free market and supply and demand. I hate it, and this is actually one of the reasons I have stopped buying new equipment from Canon. I refuse to be strongarmed into one set price for their equipment, when I know resellers have different profit margins and could pass lower prices to me if they wanted to and could make it work in their business model.

http://www.sba.gov …E2%80%99s-marketing-effor (external link)
http://gbr.pepperdine.​edu …re-two-different-animals/ (external link)

No matter how I read this, it feels wrong. I understand what they were trying to fix, but it feels like there could be better ways. It like the 80/20 rule, when 80% of a group of people follow the rules, but 20% doesn't, we impose rules on all 100% trying to fix it. If 20% didn't follow the rules before, they will find ways to skirt the new rules, while making life difficult for the other 80%. This happens outside of business too.

In any case, there is a better way to handle the issue at hand and I am sure Henry will make good, B&H has always seemed to address all the issues raised here.

Other interesting link(s), especially around laws in NY.
http://www.mondaq.com …cies+and+Intern​et+Dealers (external link)
http://www.pepperlaw.c​om …icle.aspx?Artic​leKey=2099 (external link)
http://home.uchicago.e​du …earch/Leegin_an​d_MRPM.pdf (external link)

These show that there are ways around these practices, if a business wants to bring suit against a manufacturer for termination of doing business with them based on MAP or RPM violations. Also this shows how consumer prices have risen 9-28% due to these practices, thus not really benefiting consumers financially, regardless of perceived benefits.

MAP Directions

Even though MAP policies are generally upheld under the rule of reason, the cases discussed above illustrate that it is important to draft and implement these policies with care. Some guiding principles follow:

Advertising Only. A MAP policy should expressly state that the policy in no way limits a retailer's right to set its own prices. Including provisions that allow internet retailers to communicate an actual sales price in a different manner—such as "Call for Pricing" or "Add to Cart to See Price"—can be a critical component of any MAP policy.

No Agreement. MAP policies should expressly state that they are unilateral and do not constitute an agreement. Questions may arise when traditional "brick and mortar" retailers encourage or support the adoption of an IMAP policy. Manufacturers should resist the temptation to implement a MAP policy in response to complaints from retailers about a discounting competitor.

Broad Application. Policies that apply to all off-site advertising, no matter what form, are more likely to be upheld than policies that are specifically directed at internet retailers.

Advertising Funds. Restrictions on advertising are more likely to be upheld if the manufacturer funds the advertising in whole or in part. Whether funding is an actual requirement before imposing MAP restrictions, and what ratio of funding should be provided (full or partial), remain unclear from the case law. Interestingly, the MAP policies in the recent WorldHomeCenter.com cases, discussed above, did not provide for any funding, and the courts did not mention this as a required element for a MAP policy.

Clarity. A MAP policy should be user-friendly and easy to understand. It should include a Frequently Asked Questions guide to clarify how the policy works.


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MDJAK
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Jul 15, 2014 18:43 |  #29

While Henry answered the question, errors happen. Suppose a store placed an ad for a $4,000 item and by a printer's error or otherwise it was listed at $400. Do you think you should get it for $400 if they catch the error before shipping the item?

It would be nice if the world worked that way.




  
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TeamSpeed
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Jul 15, 2014 18:52 |  #30

MDJAK wrote in post #17034474 (external link)
While Henry answered the question, errors happen. Suppose a store placed an ad for a $4,000 item and by a printer's error or otherwise it was listed at $400. Do you think you should get it for $400 if they catch the error before shipping the item?

It would be nice if the world worked that way.

Sure, who would expect to get something at 10% of its cost due to an error? But again, in this case, the item was 85% of its cost due to an error. A 15% price reduction is commonplace. One wouldn't think that this is an error and they are getting away with something, it seems reasonable.


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"Man only has 5 senses, and sometimes not even that, so if they define the world, the universe, the dimensions of existence, and spirituality with just these limited senses, their view of what-is and what-can-be is very myopic indeed and they are doomed, now and forever."

  
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