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Thread started 19 Jul 2014 (Saturday) 11:30
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Chances of 5D MkIV have better dynamic range?

 
Patbil10
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Jul 28, 2014 12:39 |  #61

Shadowblade wrote in post #17050202 (external link)
The DR is technically decent (not Exmor-like, but decent), but the darkest few stops are so badly affected by pattern noise that they're essentially unusable, especially if you need to do any sort of processing to bring out the shadows.

I'd say the functional DR is 3-4 stops less than the measured DR due to this pattern noise. The 6D has a similar measured DR, but the lack of pattern noise means that the usable DR is much greater.

Both cameras, though, are sorely lacking resolution for making large, detailed prints. 20/22MP was good for 2008, but inadequate for 2014.

How large do you print ? The max size I can print at home is 13x19 and they are incredible. I don't think that throwing 35-40 MP is necessary. (for me anyway)

About DR, I don't see the big deal...I expose to the right and bring it back down in post. The shadows slider also works really well...perhaps this step is not needed with the D810...


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Jul 28, 2014 20:15 |  #62

Patbil10 wrote in post #17061722 (external link)
About DR, I don't see the big deal...I expose to the right and bring it back down in post. The shadows slider also works really well...perhaps this step is not needed with the D810...

It still works just as well for the D810 as any other digital camera these days. The D810 will allow even further messing about in shadows than the current crop of Canon's though


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Shadowblade
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Jul 28, 2014 23:27 |  #63

Patbil10 wrote in post #17061722 (external link)
How large do you print ? The max size I can print at home is 13x19 and they are incredible. I don't think that throwing 35-40 MP is necessary. (for me anyway)

24x72 on one printer, 44x132 on the other. For some custom installations, I've gone all the way to 2x6m (using an outside printing service). And viewers walk right up to it!

About DR, I don't see the big deal...I expose to the right and bring it back down in post. The shadows slider also works really well...perhaps this step is not needed with the D810...

What do you shoot?

I don't have the option to expose to the right. When shooting a typical landscape, when I set the exposure so that the highlights aren't blown out, parts of the scene - sometimes large parts - will be in deep shadow. With a Canon sensor, these shadows are unuseable and I need to shoot two or three separate exposures in order to combine them in post-processing. With Nikon/Sony sensors, I can often get away with a single exposure, or at least fewer brackets (the fewer the brackets, the lower the risk of misalignment).

If you only shoot in controlled environments, or have the option of fill flash, or only shoot low-DR scenes, you'd probably never encounter this issue. But every landscape photographer I've met runs into it every time they shoot. Sunrise and sunset are very-contrasty lighting environments!




  
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Patbil10
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Jul 29, 2014 09:20 |  #64

Shadowblade wrote in post #17062963 (external link)
24x72 on one printer, 44x132 on the other. For some custom installations, I've gone all the way to 2x6m (using an outside printing service). And viewers walk right up to it!

What do you shoot?

I don't have the option to expose to the right. When shooting a typical landscape, when I set the exposure so that the highlights aren't blown out, parts of the scene - sometimes large parts - will be in deep shadow. With a Canon sensor, these shadows are unuseable and I need to shoot two or three separate exposures in order to combine them in post-processing. With Nikon/Sony sensors, I can often get away with a single exposure, or at least fewer brackets (the fewer the brackets, the lower the risk of misalignment).


If you only shoot in controlled environments, or have the option of fill flash, or only shoot low-DR scenes, you'd probably never encounter this issue. But every landscape photographer I've met runs into it every time they shoot. Sunrise and sunset are very-contrasty lighting environments!


I can see how DR can be an issue for you. I still think it's possible with a Canon sensor. The below image worked fine despite the high contrast areas...

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IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/fkCr​gP  (external link) 152A8886.jpg (external link) by patbil (external link), on Flickr

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Shadowblade
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Jul 29, 2014 09:23 |  #65

Patbil10 wrote in post #17063663 (external link)
I can see how DR can be an issue for you. I still think it's possible with a Canon sensor. The below image worked fine despite the high contrast areas...
QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/fkCr​gP  (external link) 152A8886.jpg (external link) by patbil (external link), on Flickr

The sky and part of the wedding dress are completely blown out.

If it were an architectural shot, landscape or other image where the whole image matters, not just the subject, it would be unacceptable.

To get the sky within the dynamic range in a single shot, the shutter speed would have to be a lot shorter, making everything else darker before recovering it in post-processing. Possible with a Sony/Nikon sensor, not possible with a Canon sensor (at least not without unacceptable noise).




  
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David ­ Arbogast
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Jul 29, 2014 09:40 |  #66

Shadowblade wrote in post #17063669 (external link)
The sky and part of the wedding dress are completely blown out.

If it were an architectural shot, landscape or other image where the whole image matters, not just the subject, it would be unacceptable.
To get the sky within the dynamic range in a single shot, the shutter speed would have to be a lot shorter, making everything else darker before recovering it in post-processing. Possible with a Sony/Nikon sensor, not possible with a Canon sensor (at least not without unacceptable noise).

Very true.


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smythie
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Aug 03, 2014 20:04 as a reply to  @ David Arbogast's post |  #67

Given that scene, even a Sony sensor would need bracketing to keep the sky blue while having any useable information in the shadows


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Shadowblade
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Aug 04, 2014 02:10 |  #68

smythie wrote in post #17074334 (external link)
Given that scene, even a Sony sensor would need bracketing to keep the sky blue while having any useable information in the shadows

I wouldn't think so. Differences between sky and shaded ground tend not to be as extreme as imagined.

When I was shooting landscapes with a Canon body, I could normally bring sky and ground into balance with each other with a 2- or 3-stop GND filter (if the line of transition allows for it) or by using two bracketed exposures 2-3 stops apart and blending it. It didn't work for all situations, but, when things weren't moving, it was workable.

Between Sony's 2-stop advantage in DR and the lack of pattern noise making Sony's darkest few stops usable, you'd easily be able to capture that scene with a single Sony/Nikon frame, then bring up the shadows in processing.




  
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Aug 04, 2014 02:21 |  #69

Shadowblade wrote in post #17074762 (external link)
I wouldn't think so. Differences between sky and shaded ground tend not to be as extreme as imagined.

When I was shooting landscapes with a Canon body, I could normally bring sky and ground into balance with each other with a 2- or 3-stop GND filter (if the line of transition allows for it) or by using two bracketed exposures 2-3 stops apart and blending it. It didn't work for all situations, but, when things weren't moving, it was workable.

Between Sony's 2-stop advantage in DR and the lack of pattern noise making Sony's darkest few stops usable, you'd easily be able to capture that scene with a single Sony/Nikon frame, then bring up the shadows in processing.

As long as there is enough light to use a low ISO. When stepping up the ISO, the sensor will not just have more noise but will also lose stops of dynamic range.


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Aug 04, 2014 02:26 |  #70

smythie wrote in post #17074334 (external link)
Given that scene, even a Sony sensor would need bracketing to keep the sky blue while having any useable information in the shadows

No it wouldn't. The Sony sensor has as much latitude on the highlights as the Canon, but a lot more on the shadows.

I keep these screenshots just to demonstrate what can be done with the Exmor sensor. Will you need this kind of latitude often? No. There are plenty of times when it's useful though. Notice in both that they have been pushed 5 stops (all that Lr will allow) with highlights pulled all the way down and shadows pushed further still. Both images are as clean as you'd like.

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Aug 04, 2014 04:43 |  #71

Scatterbrained wrote in post #17074769 (external link)
No it wouldn't. The Sony sensor has as much latitude on the highlights as the Canon, but a lot more on the shadows.

I keep these screenshots just to demonstrate what can be done with the Exmor sensor. Will you need this kind of latitude often? No. There are plenty of times when it's useful though. Notice in both that they have been pushed 5 stops (all that Lr will allow) with highlights pulled all the way down and shadows pushed further still. Both images are as clean as you'd like.

That is absolutely incredible. I have never had a situation where I had to do a 5 stop recovery on anything that mattered, but in my regular work the 2 stop exposure recovery never posed a problem. I have tried to make something increased by 5 stops and it looks like a mess. However, this is crazy. I'm about to jump on this wagon all you guys are all on.

Can you do that with a side-by-side of the exact same exposure settings with a Canon 5D III so we can see what the exact same Canon image looks like pulled 5 stops. Next to a shot with the Exmor sensor. I'd love to see the 100% zoom of both of those at +5 exposure.

So here's the funny thing I'm thinking about: canon has spent a lot of money on research to get it's cameras the ability of usable low-noise high ISO settings. But if the Exmor sensor doesn't need high ISO, and it produces low-noise underexposed images, isn't that almost the same thing? I mean... One you have the option to pump up ISO, the other you have the option to recover under exposure - and both will have low noise - but one will have the ability to recover a greater dynamic range and the other doesn't. It makes me think it might be possible to combine both abilities to make a camera that has low-noise recoverable images and low-noise high ISO ability.

I did find that the Exmor sensor does do some noise reduction processing on-chip. So now the question is: does Canon want to do any noise reduction to it's RAW images as a matter of principal.

Again, I am totally floored by this.




  
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Aug 04, 2014 20:02 |  #72

Here is another example posted today by SLR Lounge. I LOL'd at the 5D3 example.

http://www.slrlounge.c​om/nikon-d4s-expectations/ (external link)


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Aug 04, 2014 20:26 |  #73

CRCchemist wrote in post #17074850 (external link)
That is absolutely incredible. I have never had a situation where I had to do a 5 stop recovery on anything that mattered, but in my regular work the 2 stop exposure recovery never posed a problem. I have tried to make something increased by 5 stops and it looks like a mess. However, this is crazy. I'm about to jump on this wagon all you guys are all on.

Can you do that with a side-by-side of the exact same exposure settings with a Canon 5D III so we can see what the exact same Canon image looks like pulled 5 stops. Next to a shot with the Exmor sensor. I'd love to see the 100% zoom of both of those at +5 exposure.

So here's the funny thing I'm thinking about: canon has spent a lot of money on research to get it's cameras the ability of usable low-noise high ISO settings. But if the Exmor sensor doesn't need high ISO, and it produces low-noise underexposed images, isn't that almost the same thing? I mean... One you have the option to pump up ISO, the other you have the option to recover under exposure - and both will have low noise - but one will have the ability to recover a greater dynamic range and the other doesn't. It makes me think it might be possible to combine both abilities to make a camera that has low-noise recoverable images and low-noise high ISO ability.

I did find that the Exmor sensor does do some noise reduction processing on-chip. So now the question is: does Canon want to do any noise reduction to it's RAW images as a matter of principal.

Again, I am totally floored by this.

I'd love to put the D800 and the 5DIII next to each other in a head to head, but sadly, I don't own either of them. I still shoot with the 5DII, mainly because what I saw in the raw files of the 5DIII didn't impress me. Those shots were both the "highlight" exposures from HDR brackets. On another board I'm on it would kill me to see guys going from +5 to -5 at half stop intervals for HDRs that ended up looking like snapshots; especially knowing their camera could handle it in one shot. That's where the motorcycle showroom shot came from. I took just the -5 shot and processed it. When they liked the result I told them it was from just one of their exposures. ;) :lol:
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Aug 04, 2014 21:33 |  #74
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Patbil10 wrote in post #17063663 (external link)
I can see how DR can be an issue for you. I still think it's possible with a Canon sensor. The below image worked fine despite the high contrast areas...
QUOTED IMAGE
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/fkCr​gP  (external link) 152A8886.jpg (external link) by patbil (external link), on Flickr

very poor example of "acceptable" DR.

try a Nikon or Sony camera and you will know that everyone is talking about.


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Aug 04, 2014 22:30 |  #75

Shadowblade wrote in post #17063669 (external link)
The sky and part of the wedding dress are completely blown out.

If it were an architectural shot, landscape or other image where the whole image matters, not just the subject, it would be unacceptable.

To get the sky within the dynamic range in a single shot, the shutter speed would have to be a lot shorter, making everything else darker before recovering it in post-processing. Possible with a Sony/Nikon sensor, not possible with a Canon sensor (at least not without unacceptable noise).

Drab exposure on the subject too...


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Chances of 5D MkIV have better dynamic range?
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