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Thread started 26 Jul 2014 (Saturday) 10:13
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Fate of 7D

 
gjl711
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Aug 01, 2014 18:22 |  #106

Archibald wrote in post #17071036 (external link)
I think I crushed your hopes for your ideal camera! Sorry about that.

It's not my fault! But reading the signs, I'm thinking the replacement for the 7D is the 70D.

I don't expect a big improvement in sensors in the foreseeable future, because they already are excellent, and further significant improvement will be very difficult. It's because of that darned S-curve known to researchers and developers. A significant advancement awaits the development of new technology.

Seriously? The 70D as a replacement for the 7D? It's not even it's equal. And clearly you have not been keeping up with sensor improvements. There are plenty of improvements already on the market. Canon is just lagging far behind. They have to have a two generation jump just to catch up. Heck, I would be happy if they just tossed up their hands and gave us the Exmore in a Canon body. That would be a vast improvement.


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archer1960
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Aug 01, 2014 18:31 |  #107

gjl711 wrote in post #17071043 (external link)
Seriously? The 70D as a replacement for the 7D? It's not even it's equal. And clearly you have not been keeping up with sensor improvements. There are plenty of improvements already on the market. Canon is just lagging far behind. They have to have a two generation jump just to catch up. Heck, I would be happy if they just tossed up their hands and gave us the Exmore in a Canon body. That would be a vast improvement.

Only if they could get the high ISO noise levels down to what Canon already has.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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archer1960
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Aug 01, 2014 18:37 |  #108

gjl711 wrote in post #17070724 (external link)
I could buy this if we were talking about average users but the market for the 7DII is not your average user. They are power users, professionals, photographers that demand much from their equipment and would thus be very aware of the performance differences.

ALso, I have to believe that Canon is acutely aware that they are falling behind in the IQ race and putting out another minor upgrade now will put them further behind as their competition continues to improve. Nikon's new D810 looks stunning even though it was just a marginal improvement over the D800 and Sony's A7r and A7s are pretty impressive as well. THe high ISO shots from the A7s are surprisingly good.

That (the bolded statement) is a good point, but keep in mind that 7D users aren't typically landscape shooters, which is where they higher DR of the Exmoor sensors really shows its stuff. They are mostly sports and wildlife shooters, where low light (and the resulting higher ISOs being used), the high fps, and fast AF are more common requirements.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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kfreels
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Aug 01, 2014 19:43 |  #109

archer1960 wrote in post #17071063 (external link)
That (the bolded statement) is a good point, but keep in mind that 7D users aren't typically landscape shooters, which is where they higher DR of the Exmoor sensors really shows its stuff. They are mostly sports and wildlife shooters, where low light (and the resulting higher ISOs being used), the high fps, and fast AF are more common requirements.

Methinks you don't shoot sports r nature much. Contrast is a pain in the rear for anything that happens outside during the day. I'd argue that DR is almost more important to sports and nature shooters than for landscape work. When shooting sports, you're shooting people. And those faces need to be properly exposed. If they are outside during the day, it's hard to get a good face shot without blowing out the background or having the raccoon face you get from overhead sunlight directly on the face. The same happens with nature where you shoot a critter - especially birds - with a blown out sky or underexposed critter. And on most of this, fill flash isn't an option because you're working from long distances. It would be nice if you could always have the sun at your back but it rarely works out that way with sports and nature since you can't just ask them to move so you can reposition yourself. And you can't do 2-3 exposures in sports and nature for HDR to compensate for a scene with too much contrast.

As for sensor design, all I have to say is that you're wrong. There's plenty of room for improvement with sensors. I won't waste my time arguing about why. There's plenty of other threads about that out there.

Finally, you didn't crush my hopes for an ideal camera. I think you're way off the mark in your belief that the 70D is the 7D replacement. It doesn't make any sense with all the room there is for improvement that is well within the capability of Canon and plenty of people willing to pay for it over the 70D. The 70D in many places doesn't even match up to the specs of the 7D. And they continued to manufacture and sell lots of 7Ds even after the 70D came out. I don't know which signs you're reading but it seems to me that maybe you're reading them wrong.


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archer1960
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Aug 01, 2014 20:49 |  #110

kfreels wrote in post #17071168 (external link)
Methinks you don't shoot sports r nature much. Contrast is a pain in the rear for anything that happens outside during the day. I'd argue that DR is almost more important to sports and nature shooters than for landscape work. When shooting sports, you're shooting people. And those faces need to be properly exposed. If they are outside during the day, it's hard to get a good face shot without blowing out the background or having the raccoon face you get from overhead sunlight directly on the face. The same happens with nature where you shoot a critter - especially birds - with a blown out sky or underexposed critter. And on most of this, fill flash isn't an option because you're working from long distances. It would be nice if you could always have the sun at your back but it rarely works out that way with sports and nature since you can't just ask them to move so you can reposition yourself. And you can't do 2-3 exposures in sports and nature for HDR to compensate for a scene with too much contrast.

As for sensor design, all I have to say is that you're wrong. There's plenty of room for improvement with sensors. I won't waste my time arguing about why. There's plenty of other threads about that out there.

Finally, you didn't crush my hopes for an ideal camera. I think you're way off the mark in your belief that the 70D is the 7D replacement. It doesn't make any sense with all the room there is for improvement that is well within the capability of Canon and plenty of people willing to pay for it over the 70D. The 70D in many places doesn't even match up to the specs of the 7D. And they continued to manufacture and sell lots of 7Ds even after the 70D came out. I don't know which signs you're reading but it seems to me that maybe you're reading them wrong.

You're getting your responders mixed up. Your first paragraph responds to me, but your other two don't. I don't shoot many sports, but I do a lot of wildlife, macro and birds. I agree that high contrast can be a problem, but not as frequently as it is in landscapes; it's a difference in degree, not in kind. Particularly in sports, I don't much care if the background is blown out or completely dark, as long as the subject is properly exposed. The background is usually irrelevant to the quality of the shot. and often you simply don't have those extremes because the event is later in the day, or indoors.

In a landscape, you usually want the entire frame to have nice detail, in both light and dark ares. In sports, that's not nearly as important in MOST situations.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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pwm2
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Aug 01, 2014 22:22 |  #111

archer1960 wrote in post #17071059 (external link)
Only if they could get the high ISO noise levels down to what Canon already has.

Remember that many high ISO noise level tests compares a 100% crop of a 36MP Exmor sensor with a 20MP Canon sensor.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
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pwm2
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Aug 01, 2014 22:27 |  #112

The 70D is definitely a 60D replacement.

But nowhere ever does the 70D trig the same amount of want that the 7D did when I had a 5D2 and did look at the newly released 7D. So somehow, the 70D fails quite badly to step up to the plate and behave like a 7D replacement. It's a nice camera in its own, but not as the follower of a 7D.


5DMk2 + BG-E6 | 40D + BG-E2N | 350D + BG-E3 + RC-1 | Elan 7E | Minolta Dimage 7U | (Gear thread)
10-22 | 16-35/2.8 L II | 20-35 | 24-105 L IS | 28-135 IS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.8 II | 70-200/2.8 L IS | 100/2.8 L IS | 100-400 L IS | Sigma 18-200DC
Speedlite 420EZ | Speedlite 580EX | EF 1.4x II | EF 2x II

  
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archer1960
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Aug 02, 2014 06:00 |  #113

pwm2 wrote in post #17071442 (external link)
Remember that many high ISO noise level tests compares a 100% crop of a 36MP Exmor sensor with a 20MP Canon sensor.

True, but for much of what I shoot, I would give up some of those pixels for better ISO noise. I'm not a landscape shooter where every last pixel of detail matters...


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

  
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Fate of 7D
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