colours changing on save in PSE11

hi guys

cant figure out what I am probably doing wrong here

loading the xx.CR2 file into LR5, doing some basic sharpening and colour corrections
then right clicking on the image and selecting PSE11 for further editing

I notice its converting the RAW to TIFF when it opens in PSE Its also asking me to select 8bit cuz it doesn't support all features on 16 bit files.

BUT when I have done all the editing ( skin repairs etc) and save the file as either
TIFF or JPG, the image is loosing all its original ( and any added) colour corrections
and looks like the image below very bland
below is the JPG version ( TIFF doesn't look any different)

where am I screwing up ?

thanks lots Dave

I have also found that if I load the .CR2 file directly into PSE11 and then save as a JPG it retains all the colour settings

so what is happening when moving the file from LR5 to PSE11 ?


Dave

Pretty sure it is a colour space issue. The above image has been exported in the ProPhoto RGB colour space, which is good for doing development work but not so good when it comes to viewing on the web etc.

the easiest way to avoid this is....
Have LR set to ProPhoto (you almost certainly do).
Have it set to export to Photoshop Elements in ProPhot (you almost certainly do).

In LR do your RAW development then select Edit in... to edit the image in Photoshop (check in the export pop up that the colour space selected is still ProPhoto). Lightroom will create a TIFF file, add it to its catalog and then open it in Photoshop.
Do Photoshop editing and then select Save (not Save As)* and Photoshop will save the edited version over the TIFF that LR created and this latest, edited version, will be visible in LR.
Now right click the image in LR and select Export. Check the export dialogue and make sure the file type is JPEG and the colour space is set to sRGB.

*If you do Save As the new image will not automatically appear in LR. The original unedited TIFF will be visible and you will need to Synchronize Folder to show the edited image.

Hi Dan

thanks for responding ... will try that now

Something else I have just discovered
The file I did LR development on and then edited in PSE I could use the clone stamp and sort out blemishes etc. But if I load the RAW file directly into PSE11, the clone stamp etc wont work...

I can select clone stamp tool, use the ALT key to select the "sample area" and that can be seen when cursor is moved over the blemish, but it wont stamp and get rid of the blemish
It works OK on the TIFF file I had moved from LR5

Using these 2 programs are relatively new to me ... huge learning curve
so appreciate you patience with my probably basic questions

Dave

Yes, That worked following your instructions. Using the Save instead of Save As, I saw the edited version appear in LR and then doing a save as JPG, I got the desired result

thanks
Dave

Davenn wrote in post #17101082
Yes, That worked following your instructions. Using the Save instead of Save As, I saw the edited version appear in LR and then doing a save as JPG, I got the desired result

thanks
Dave

When you create the JPEG using this particular workflow, you MUST do it by exporting the image FROM Lightroom. If you save out the JPEG directly from Photoshop Elements, although you now see the editing, you will still end up with the JPEG having the wrong colour space applied to it. When doing an Export LR is usually very good about making sure the correct colour space for general use (sRGB) is used. Infact I do not think any of the initially set export presets uses anything other than sRGB, so you have to actively make changes to screw things up. Not that it isn't easy to make a change by mistake, but Adobe do try to make sure that at least things are correct to start with.

Alan

Dan and Alan - Much as I love you guys, I have to disagree on this one. By telling the OP to edit in PSE in 8 bits and in ProPhoto RGB you are setting him up for a "world of hurt" and some damaged images. Your WF (staying in ProPhoto RGB because it is closest to LR's internal space) may be best if you are planning to print from LR to a wide gamut printer and (more important) if you are confining your PSE work to cloning, sharpening and similar operations, but it is not one I would recommend to a novice with no understanding of color management. Instead, I would recommend that he set his LR Preferences to send to PSE a tif in sRGB (and he might as well save time by having the reduction to 8 bits done at this point as well). For most people - those who are sending the image to the web or to an outside printer - it is no hardship editing in PSE in sRGB rather than converting later, and in fact there are certain advantages.

tzalman wrote in post #17103502
Dan and Alan - Much as I love you guys, I have to disagree on this one. By telling the OP to edit in PSE in 8 bits and in ProPhoto RGB you are setting him up for a "world of hurt" and some damaged images. Your WF (staying in ProPhoto RGB because it is closest to LR's internal space) may be best if you are planning to print from LR to a wide gamut printer and (more important) if you are confining your PSE work to cloning, sharpening and similar operations, but it is not one I would recommend to a novice with no understanding of color management. Instead, I would recommend that he set his LR Preferences to send to PSE a tif in sRGB (and he might as well save time by having the reduction to 8 bits done at this point as well). For most people - those who are sending the image to the web or to an outside printer - it is no hardship editing in PSE in sRGB rather than converting later, and in fact there are certain advantages.

+1. IMO you are going to 8bit anywhere in the workflow, just stick with sRGB and be 'unconfused'. I know sRGB has become unpopular, but it really isn't a 'bad' colorspace for most applications.

I would also recommend to the OP that you do as much as possible in LR before converting to 8bits and using PSE in case you are not doing that - it sounds like you are perhaps wanting to load the raw into PSE. Really, if you have LR, then it is better to do the raw conversion and major adjustments in LR (essentially becasue it works in 16bit). Then convert to 8bit sRGB TIFF and adjust locally in PSE. PSE will essentially be doing the raw to 8bit TIFF conversion internally anyway and with less control than LR.

tzalman wrote in post #17103502
By telling the OP to edit in PSE in 8 bits and in ProPhoto RGB you are setting him up for a "world of hurt" and some damaged images.

Hi Elli, always interested in learning more so can you explain what the actual problems are that might be encountered? I have been using this WF since I started using LR/PSE some years ago and have never encountered any issues - however I do 99.9% of my processing in LR and just clone/layers in PSE.

Dan Marchant wrote in post #17104369
Hi Elli, always interested in learning more so can you explain what the actual problems are that might be encountered? I have been using this WF since I started using LR/PSE some years ago and have never encountered any issues - however I do 99.9% of my processing in LR and just clone/layers in PSE.

Hi Dan,
My main concern is that the OP might be tempted to doing some major color or tone shifting in PSE.

Every color space has exactly the same number of tones to play with; that is determined by the bit depth and in 8 bits it is only 256 tones per channel. ProPhoto RGB covers an extremely wide range with only those same 256 levels. It's like crossing a room - sRGB crosses a smallish room in baby steps. Adobe RGB covers a bigger room with normal steps and ProPhoto RGB crosses a ballroom with giant steps. That means that there are big gaps between the spots where the foot comes down. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of levels are used for the brightest parts of the image (highlights) and relatively few are left for the shadows. (My apologies for writing this in dumbed down language, it's probably not new for you but others may be looking in.) As you change tones and colors, inevitably levels are lost and in 8 bit ProPhoto RGB the gaps in the shadows can very quickly become wide enough to be seen by the human eye. The result is banding.

Another consideration is efficient use of your color space. Look at the diagram below: Almost all the colors that exist in the normal photographic subject are in the sRGB range. Adobe RGB offers some others, mostly greens, but some of the most extreme greens aren't found in nature, only in bright plastic toys. The colors between the limit of Abobe RGB and the limit of ProPhoto RGB are almost entirely artificial colors that you can create in the computer but won't find in the real world (bright red flowers are an exception). So there is a lot of wasted space there, that is using up a lot of valuable levels in the bright colors but not doing anything with them. Moreover, most monitors will show only a range of color similar to sRGB (my Dell U2311 shows 96% of sRGB and my Toshiba laptop only 72% of sRGB). So if you push up saturation in ProPhoto RGB you will not only be creating useless colors that are beyond the range of any but the best printers, you also cannot even see them on your monitor.

If you leave the image in the wide space and view it without color management, you will discover, as did the OP, that it won't display right. And if you do convert to sRGB, if you have tried to "jazz it up" in PSE, all those ProPhoto colors will be squashed down to fit in sRGB, when at the end of the day you convert it, and highlight detail will be lost.

Bottom line: doing things that don't involve tone/color changes in 8 bit ProPhoto RGB is okay, but do the exposure adjustment, shadow lifting and color editing first in LR. And my feeling is that if you are going to end up in sRGB anyways, for web sharing and lab printing, you might as well go to it at the first color space conversion while coming out of LR, rather than doing a pointless and potentially dangerous double conversion.

Elie I was going to post earlier agreeing with your choice of editing in sRGB when limited to using 8bpc. It is a long while since I used PSE, it was V2 which came on a disk with my 300D. I had forgotten about the effective limitation of only beging able to use 8 bit colour. As I stick with a 16bpc workflow in CS5 staying in ProPhoto/Melissa is the obvious choice, especially where one is likely to do additonal editing to the PSD/TIFF file in LR. I often do LR->PS->LR->Output as my editing steps. If one were to do the same but using 8bpc/sRGB in the case of a PSE workflow has anyone done the math on the following set of conversions (16bpc/Melissa)->(8bpc/sRGB)->(16bpc/Melissa) and then output to whatever you need from LR, but most probably 8bpc/sRGB? Is 16bpc Melissa pretty close resolution wise to 8bpc sRGB?

Alan

I also suggest working in your output color space, generally sRgb. Reduces conversions, losses, and few printers can print outside sRgb anyway.

Thanks everyone for the additional input.

At this stage, Yes, I do initial exp, sat, clarity etc in LR and then the cloning , layers etc work in PSE
I am not doing any serious printing at home as of yet and only occasionally get something printed at an outside company.

I will have a play with this way as well

Yes, that's always possible as part of my experimenting and learning

Dan, you sorted out the initial problem ---- thanks
Elie, you have given me serious food for thought for changes to the way I transfer images between LR and PSE for further adjustments

Loading the .CR2 file directly into PSE only came about after seeing the crap result I was getting when I had saved the LR --> PSE file to a JPG from PSE and not understanding the problem

Alan, appreciate your additional comments as well

Again the combined brain power of members wins

cheers
Dave