Selling with PayPal question

I had never sold gear on POTN before, but I sold off my 17-40 using PayPal and all seemed to be fine until the buyer got the lens and then reversed the payment. PayPal said that since I wasn’t covered under buyer protection the amount was debited immediately.

I did read through the ‘Receiving Payments’ section, but didn’t see how I would have done anything different. I didn’t realize this could happen, and figured the buyer would at least have to open a dispute of some sort.

So the question is what as a seller should I do, or can I do to prevent someone just revering the payment? I have of course read about all sorts of issues with PayPal and I realize that one has to be careful buying and selling stuff on POTN, but I'm just trying to figure out if I did something stupid.

I have of course contacted the buyer in case there is some problem or it was an error, but we shall see.

Did you do any of the things listed here?

https://www.paypal.com …ler-protection-learn-more

When you are not covered:
Items are picked up locally or delivered in person.
You sell services, intangible items, or digital goods.
You receive multiple payments for the same item.
You've received a claim or a chargeback, and the shipped item is found to be significantly different than it was described.
Example: You describe a new laptop, but send a used one.
PayPal Direct Payments
Virtual Terminal Payments
PayPal Business Payments
Items that are not shipped to the recipient shipping address on the transaction details page. If you originally ship the item to the shipping address but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.

If you didn't violate any of these terms, you should be able to open a case with paypal. Was the user a member with any feedback, and did you get any contact info besides the paypal email address?

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17111329
Did you do any of the things listed here?

https://www.paypal.com …ler-protection-learn-more

When you are not covered:
Items are picked up locally or delivered in person.
You sell services, intangible items, or digital goods.
You receive multiple payments for the same item.
You've received a claim or a chargeback, and the shipped item is found to be significantly different than it was described.
Example: You describe a new laptop, but send a used one.
PayPal Direct Payments
Virtual Terminal Payments
PayPal Business Payments
Items that are not shipped to the recipient shipping address on the transaction details page. If you originally ship the item to the shipping address but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.

If you didn't violate any of these terms, you should be able to open a case with paypal. Was the user a member with any feedback, and did you get any contact info besides the paypal email address?

I'm not sure if it was a 'Direct Payment' or not. How could I tell? Should I have requested money, rather than just give the person my paypal email to send the money? I think when I bought stuff I just used the other persons PayPal email.

EDIT: I guess it wasn't a direct payment - that would be where I collected the buyers credit card info.

Also I must admit it was unclear whether it was a 'gift' payment or 'regular', but I guess you couldn't reverse a 'gift'.

I have the shipping address and a phone number I used to text the person. I don't think they had feedback - a little hard to search, but it did seen they had been buying stuff and I did a search for anything negative posted.

It's strange, becasue it doesn't seem like there is any way of knowing for sure if you are covered by seller protection beforehand - or is there and I didn't look or know what to look for.

A "GIFT" payment is never good. When you receive a "gift" payment there is NO address associated with the payment so you would have had to e-mail or get the buyers address in some other communication.

Most all "sales" outside of e-bay are NOT covered by Pay Pals coverage policies. Oh, sometimes they will work with a seller, but for the most part you're on your own.

Was the money withdrawn from your account due to a credit card CHARGEBACK? If so the buyer need not go through Pay Pal to do this and in any event Pay Pal has no control over credit card companies or their policies. You lose.

Is your Pay Pal account frozen? This is the normal procedure with a "claim" through Pay Pal and the normal "investigation" period is 14 days in which you provide proof of shipping (a tracking number - package weight - and confirmed signature delivery are best - much less than that and you will normally lose the claim). If this is the case your best bet is to try to get Pay Pal to have the buyer RETURN your merchandise! Of course as you describe the events it would seem that Pay Pal is not involved with a claim, but more likely that the buyer initiated a chargeback after receiving the item - so he gets to keep the item, got his money back, and keeps his good standing with Pay Pal.

Hillbille

Direct payment, personal payment and gift payment are the same thing I believe- it means you are sending the person money for something other than the purchase of goods or services. If the buyer chooses this option, paypal won't take a percentage of your sale price, but it also voids any seller or buyer protection, since you are stating you aren't selling anything.

Did you pay a fee (2.9% I think) for the money you received?

https://cms.paypal.com​/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_​render-content&content_ID=ua/​BuyerProtComp_full&loc​ale.x=en_US#3. Sending Money.

Skip to section 11 of the link above- it outlines seller protection.

ejenner wrote in post #17111354
It's strange, becasue it doesn't seem like there is any way of knowing for sure if you are covered by seller protection beforehand - or is there and I didn't look or know what to look for.

If you look on the transaction details page- it should have a marked as eligible for seller protection near the top of the page.

On another note.

You omit dates in your original post so it make anyone trying to give you advice a little uncertain. That being said, here are some things that MIGHT apply to this case.

Did you do a click and print shipping label through Pay Pal for the item?
Do you have any way of knowing EXACTLY the date the item was delivered? (If you did NOT get a delivery confirmation/tracking number - then I suggest you CALL the US Post Office where the package was delivered and ask to speak to the Postmaster. Give him all the information and try to ascertain the exact date the item was delivered.)

The reason for that is it may be your best chance at a resolution. The date YOU sent the package and the date it was DELIVERED are very important. They set TRANSIT time. Transit time is important because IF and here is where the delivery date comes into play - IF - the person did a chargeback or reverse charge or whatever on the date of delivery or before the package could possibly have been sent back, then you probably have a case of federal mail fraud - and by confirming the dates with the Postmasters you have evidence that is viable.

If all other methods of resolution fail, go to your local police and file a charge against the buyer for mail fraud. Go see your local District Attorney too. Call the police department in the city where the buyer lives and file a complaint with them, citing the local Postmaster as a witness and give them your evidence. Mail fraud is a serious federal crime and carries a substantial penalty. If nothing else when the police knock on his door to investigate your charge, he might decide to return your item.

Hillbille

Thanks for the help. I think/hope this is going to be resolved, but I will read through the posts and see if I have any other questions. This at least gives me more of an idea what to ask.

I didn't want to give any details, becasue I didn't want to accuse the buyer before giving them a chance.

But I do what to figure out exactly what I should be doing as a seller in the future to be as safe/prepared as possible.

Package was delivered to the address that came with the PayPal transaction (said it was a verified address and with signature confirmation - I have the USPS confirmation of delivery and the buyer as named as having signed for it.

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17111457
Did you pay a fee (2.9% I think) for the money you received?

Interestingly not, but then I didn't know when it would be deducted - whether that would occur after a certain time when the funds were 'released'.

Qlayer2 wrote in post #17111476
If you look on the transaction details page- it should have a marked as eligible for seller protection near the top of the page.

However, the seller just re-paid and I got a different message than before and this time the fee was deducted and there is a note on the transaction saying not eligible for seller protection becasue 'no shipping address on file'.

So I guess the shipping address was just given by the seller in the email accompanying the initial payment. The problem is/was I had no idea what to even expect, otherwise I would have initially rejected payment.

Well I just talked with PayPal and there at least seemed helpful. They said the way is was send now the buyer would have to open up a dispute and the funds would be put on hold rather than instantly deducted.

I'd have to contact the claims center to know exactly what was done before.

At least I know what to look for now.

Next time, I wouldn't sell to someone who's first post on this forum is the post in response to your for sale ad

If their account is not verified paypal doesn't offer any seller protection, which is stupid.

Shouldn't matter though as long as they use regular PP (of course me and my 20 posts are saying this...)

I buy/sell regularly on FM and everything is pretty smooth as long as no one uses a gift/personal payment

IShootThings wrote in post #17112120
Next time, I wouldn't sell to someone who's first post on this forum is the post in response to your for sale ad