Help with files and data please

Hello all, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate section, but I've got a couple technical questions about uploading photos.

1) Why are my TIFF files so huge? My RAW files are about 39mb and when I convert them to TIFF while exporting from Lightroom, they become 122mb TIFF files. Is that supposed to happen? I know the TIFF files can't really contain 3x the amount of data as the RAW file (can they?).

2) Since Flickr and Smugmug won't accept TIFF, I now have to use paint to convert the TIFF files to JPG or PNG in order to upload them. I've now noticed that none of my EXIF shows up on Flickr except for the color settings from LR. How do I make it still show data like FL, ISO, etc? I checked on the export screen in LR and it supposedly should still be showing all the metadata.

3) Any advice on a more streamlined way of getting them converted and up to smugmug and Flickr would be appreciated. I want them to be very high quality, which is why I switched to exporting TIFF from lightroom...but what's the point if I then have to make them crappy little JPGs to upload anyways?

Thanks in advance for any help.

1. Data is not information. The raw actually contains more information (except a little bit about the sensor properties that Lightroom used). As an example of two strings that contain the same information but different amounts of data, consider "123" and "one hundred and twenty-three".

2. The logical conclusion is that Paint is stripping the metadata.

3. Can't Lightroom write JPEGs directly? Adobe Camera Raw+Photoshop certainly can. Why are you using TIFFs as an intermediate form?

BTW MB = "megabyte", mb = "millibit".

Are you working with layers?

Are you working with "smart objects"?

I'm guessing you're using intermediate tiffs so you can go back and do more edits without degrading the image each time you save it by the way that jpeg re-compresses each time. One or two edits should be fine in jpeg though. It takes several edits and saves before you can see any noticeable difference.

So yeah. A tiff file includes 3 color values for each pixel while a raw only includes one color value. Also, saving in 16 bit can increase file size. In both instances the RAW file doesn't have all that data but the files do so that data is created and the files are larger. Also saving layers can cause much larger files as well. Be sure you're using compression. I prefer zip but others prefer lzw. In some cases it can be better but I've rarely seen it. Either option is lossless.

Unless you have to save layers, flatten your image before saving. If you're saving layers, I'd recommend psd files instead.

I appreciate the responses folks! I exported them as TIFFs just because I want to have a very high quality back-up basically. So that if the computer goes or the lightroom files get lost, I will have something bigger than JPGs to work with. Maybe I'm just paranoid.

I'll start using compression. I haven't been doing that until now, so thanks for the good suggestion. As for layers, unfortunately I can't tell you if I'm using them or not. I import photos from the camera folder straight to LR, then edit them on the "develop" page, then export to a folder on my desktop.

You should be keeping your raw files and backing them up as well as the LR catalog. The backup files should be in a different place than the originals. Then all your pics and edits will be safe.

If you are worried about being unable to edit the raw files in the future because the proprietary converters might not be available any more, then consider converting them to DNG (digital negative) files and archiving them along with the raws.

Jedi5150 wrote in post #17112638
I appreciate the responses folks! I exported them as TIFFs just because I want to have a very high quality back-up basically. So that if the computer goes or the lightroom files get lost, I will have something bigger than JPGs to work with. Maybe I'm just paranoid.

Where do you intend to keep these back-up TIFFs? If on the same drive as your original RAW files then they will be just as likely to be lost when the RAWs are (a dead hard drive is generally completely dead). If you are planning to store them on a separate back up drive why not just make a back-up of the RAW files plus your LR catalog instead - problem solved.

I wonder what camera you have that consistently produces 39 MB Raw files? Not any Canon that I know of. Maybe a Sony A7? But in that case the tiff should be bigger. My 5D2 files vary in size from 22 to 35 MB and uncompressed 16 bit tiffs from them are 121 MB. CR2 files are always compressed and the compression varies according to image content, both detail and noise, so I guess a very high ISO, highly detailed CR2 from a 5D3 could occasionally get up to 37 MB, the size of an uncompressed Raw. As to your question, "I know the TIFF files can't really contain 3x the amount of data as the RAW file (can they?)," yes, they really can and do. A Raw file is 14 bit greyscale (light intensity) data and a 16 bit tiff is a 48 bits (16 bits per channel, three channels) color image. 48 is nearly 3.5 times 14.

A Raw is nothing more than a record of the amount of light that struck each pixel. It contains no data about color, which is computer generated in the conversion software. Because each pixel sits behind a red, green or blue filter in a grid that is
RGRGRGRG
GBGBGBGB
RGRGRGRG
by knowing the position of the pixel in the grid, the intensity of either the R, G or B channel at that point can be inferred, but the other two channel values have to be interpolated into the pixel through inspection of its neighbors and some very intelligent guessing. That creates the colors.

Thanks for the advice, folks. I definitely have to work on my back-up system, which is now going to involve an external hard drive I think.

tzalman wrote in post #17112761
I wonder what camera you have that consistently produces 39 MB Raw files? Not any Canon that I know of. Maybe a Sony A7? But in that case the tiff should be bigger. My 5D2 files vary in size from 22 to 35 MB and uncompressed 16 bit tiffs from them are 121 MB.

Yeah, it's a Sony A7R, and you're right about the TIFF size, I think they were closer to 150-160 on average. That's very interesting about the TIFF files actually containing 3x the information. I couldn't wrap my head around how the computer could increase the detail of what the camera actually saw, but your explanation makes perfect sense.

Jedi5150 wrote in post #17112638
I appreciate the responses folks! I exported them as TIFFs just because I want to have a very high quality back-up basically.

You started with RAW at the camera level. Why don't you think that isn't your best "very high-quality back-up"?

John from PA wrote in post #17113387
You started with RAW at the camera level. Why don't you think that isn't your best "very high-quality back-up"?

Sorry John, I meant that had been post processed in LR. I do keep my RAW files as well (though on the same hard drive, like a moron:lol. I kept the TIFFS to have a high quality edited version.

Lightroom stores the adjustments and edits you made in its database. They are applied in the order that gives best results, rather than the order you did them. Therefore, any JPEG or TIFF Lightroom produces from the raw file at a later time gives the same result. This is so even if you stop and restart Lightroom, or if you copy the raw files and catalogue (.lrcat) onto a different machine and later version of Lightroom. This is called "parametric editing".

Adobe Camera Raw does the same thing, but instead of the catalogue the editing instructions are stored in a sidecar file.

The main exception is sometimes Adobe will make a breaking change to how a raw file is processed for a particular camera (usually a very recent model). Then they will say in the release notes you have to reprocess some or all images for the camera.

They also sometimes tinker with the colours in Adobe Standard for a particular camera. Most people don't seem to notice. Those of us who would probably aren't using the Adobe Standard profile anyway. If you think you would, use one of the "Camera ..." profiles instead, e.g. "Camera Neutral" - these are supposed to match what the camera bakes into its JPEGs.

Jedi5150 wrote in post #17113405
Sorry John, I meant that had been post processed in LR. I do keep my RAW files as well (though on the same hard drive, like a moron:lol. I kept the TIFFS to have a high quality edited version.

You have your raw file and you have the 'recipe' LR used to create the TIFF. That is your high-quality, edited, version. Keep the raw file and the LR recipe (in the catalog) and use them to re-create the jpeg when it's required.