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Thread started 27 Aug 2014 (Wednesday) 14:36
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The path of the full frame

 
Strahinja
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Aug 27, 2014 14:36 |  #1

Despite owning the 1100D (T3) for just over a year, I am really eager to move up to full frame. The better image quality, richer colors, wider field of view, all of that is really tempting, but I can't come to terms with myself whether this is actually a smart move.

I don't really come from money so this would me a gigantic leap in every way, and on top of that I don't even profit from photography, it's just a passion so far, but I do plan on doing something about that.

I have narrowed it down to 2 contenders, with the possibility of an intruder.

5Dc - cheapest way in and from what I've heard glorious image quality for a bit of faff with the old software and the dreary LCD,

1Ds Mark II - I am really hot for this one despite the price difference, the AF system is impeccable and that's something I'd been yapping about for as long I've had the 1100D, sometimes, the focus just turns its back on me. Weather sealing is amazing since I do enjoy shooting lightning from time to time, but then again I'd need a lens to compliment that (which I don't). All in all, this is my favourite. (Still drooling in the aprreciation thread).

Then, there's the intruder, 5DII, which wipes the floor with both of the previous cameras on paper (and asks for even more money), but if it just had the AF system of the 1 series, this would be without doubt the obvious choice.

I've read a lot about these, seen many photos and handled all but the 5Dc, and truth be told I'm screaming for the 1 series despite it's age (which concerns me as well, should it?) and some lack of user friendliness that I've grown accustomed to with the one I own now.

BUT! Would it be smarter for me to work my bum off as intended and just invest it in lenses and drop this dream of owning a FF after just a year and a bit? My line-up of glass is like the football team of Serbia, incomplete and not really good. I own the kit lens (which would probably be sold along with the camera if I'm going to buy the 1Ds) the rest are M42 mount Zeiss 1.8 50mm which is astonishing in every way and a 35mm Porst 2.8 which I barely use at all. I had a 135mm Porst 2.8, but I dropped it and I do believe that it has kicked the bucket. Plus I've heard about some difficulties of 1Ds working with the M42 adapters.

I am young, eager and as the age dictates, careless about my actions, so I ask you fellow photographers to help me not make a decision that I'll regret.

Cheers!


Canon 1Ds Mark II | Canon 17-35mm f/2.8 L | Canon 35-350mm f/3.5-5.6 L | Canon 50mm f/1.8 STM |

  
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hiketheplanet
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Aug 27, 2014 14:43 |  #2

If you're set on going full frame, why not consider the 6D? Colors, IQ, all that full frame goodness is that much better on the 6D than the other full frame cameras you mention. Not looking to start another 5D_ vs 6D war here, but at basically the same price (5D2 and 6D) I'd go with the newer/latest/greatest tech (the 6D)




  
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Augphoto
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Aug 27, 2014 14:48 |  #3

I agree. I believe the 6D would be the right step for you, for all the reasons stated above.


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MattPharmD
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Aug 27, 2014 16:21 |  #4

I would vote for lenses unless there is something specific about the 1100D that is holding you back. What do you shoot, and what do you want the camera to do that your current one will not?


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TeamSpeed
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Aug 27, 2014 17:14 |  #5

You can get better colors with proper post processing and correct white balance.

You can get wider views with wider glass. 35mm on a crop body is not wide at all, it is basically close to what you see with your own eyes. You can fix that with something like the new 10-18, or any of the others like Tokina 11-16, Tokina 16-28, etc.

You can get a bit better ISO performance by perhaps shooting to the right and using something like the free version of Noiseware (Noiseware Community).

In other words, with just one or 2 new lenses and some post processing and shooting changes, you can actually get quite a bit more out of your current body, and all those things will then help you later when you make the move to FF. Just a thought. :)

If you don't have the proper glass, don't expose properly, and don't have some fundamental post processing skills (and you might, I don't know), going to a FF won't really help. The skills learned on a crop body are very handy to max out the FF capabilities later.

16mm on a 7D, cropped a bit to remove the softer edges and uninteresting stuff.

IMAGE: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Still-Life/Fort-Wayne/i-cwfjBQQ/0/X2/IMG_2307-X2.jpg

How about some fun with a macro lens to live up your photo experiences? 50D example
IMAGE: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Still-Life/Macro-Magic/i-8RcSxrh/0/X2/IMG_0493-X2.jpg

You are missing some fun and probably critical lenses. :)

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gonzogolf
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Aug 27, 2014 17:19 |  #6

Get lenses first. I love full frame but glass first.




  
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seattlebruin
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Aug 27, 2014 17:57 |  #7

5D II is crashing in price recently, though. You can get a used one in great shape for under $1,000 US, but a 6D is going to run you at least $1,250

that being said, the 6D is amazing and I don't regret my 6D over 5D II choice for a second

Augphoto wrote in post #17121194 (external link)
I agree. I believe the 6D would be the right step for you, for all the reasons stated above.


Canon 5DIII || M5 || Sigma 12-24 II || 24-105 f/4L IS || 70-300 f/4-5.6L IS || 100 f/2.8 L Macro IS || 200 f/2.8L || Sigma 150-600 C || Tamron 45 f/1.8 VC || Sigma 85 f/1.4 || 40 f/2.8 || 10-18 IS || Sigma 17-70 C || 55-250 STM

  
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MalVeauX
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Aug 27, 2014 17:59 |  #8

Strahinja wrote in post #17121167 (external link)
Despite owning the 1100D (T3) for just over a year, I am really eager to move up to full frame. The better image quality, richer colors, wider field of view, all of that is really tempting, but I can't come to terms with myself whether this is actually a smart move.

I don't really come from money so this would me a gigantic leap in every way, and on top of that I don't even profit from photography, it's just a passion so far, but I do plan on doing something about that.

I have narrowed it down to 2 contenders, with the possibility of an intruder.

5Dc - cheapest way in and from what I've heard glorious image quality for a bit of faff with the old software and the dreary LCD,

1Ds Mark II - I am really hot for this one despite the price difference, the AF system is impeccable and that's something I'd been yapping about for as long I've had the 1100D, sometimes, the focus just turns its back on me. Weather sealing is amazing since I do enjoy shooting lightning from time to time, but then again I'd need a lens to compliment that (which I don't). All in all, this is my favourite. (Still drooling in the aprreciation thread).

Then, there's the intruder, 5DII, which wipes the floor with both of the previous cameras on paper (and asks for even more money), but if it just had the AF system of the 1 series, this would be without doubt the obvious choice.

I've read a lot about these, seen many photos and handled all but the 5Dc, and truth be told I'm screaming for the 1 series despite it's age (which concerns me as well, should it?) and some lack of user friendliness that I've grown accustomed to with the one I own now.

BUT! Would it be smarter for me to work my bum off as intended and just invest it in lenses and drop this dream of owning a FF after just a year and a bit? My line-up of glass is like the football team of Serbia, incomplete and not really good. I own the kit lens (which would probably be sold along with the camera if I'm going to buy the 1Ds) the rest are M42 mount Zeiss 1.8 50mm which is astonishing in every way and a 35mm Porst 2.8 which I barely use at all. I had a 135mm Porst 2.8, but I dropped it and I do believe that it has kicked the bucket. Plus I've heard about some difficulties of 1Ds working with the M42 adapters.

I am young, eager and as the age dictates, careless about my actions, so I ask you fellow photographers to help me not make a decision that I'll regret.

Cheers!

Heya,

Rent a 6D.
Or rent a 1D series that is older (II, III).

Shoot your current APS-C and a new full frame or 1D series, and have someone else compare images and see if they can pick out the different ones. You could even post here on the forum and ask us to pick out what was T3 and what was 6D (or whatever). That way you're not just honeymoon eyes for what your brain is telling you "should" be better, but rather, take an objective third point of view that is a lot more conscious of your budget, and cares less about internet articles that scream how you should be shooting full frame for everything and that it will all magically be professional and creative and artsty all at the same time, every time.

Everything you've described says you should NOT be moving to full frame. To be perfectly honest, you sound like someone who has bought into the "full frame advantage" jargon from yesteryear. Full frame is not automatically better at everything. It comes down to what you shoot, and what your goal is. You have to honestly ask yourself, are you being held back by your gear, or are you holding your gear back? There was a time when full frame had most of the advantage over APS-C, but that's not the case anymore. Besides APS-C being much better today (today's APS-C walks all over the 5D classic), the world of lenses for APS-C on the wide end have increased a lot. It's inexpensive to get ultrawide now. Today's ultrawides are high quality too. You don't need full frame to enjoy wider angles. You simply pay attention to what lenses you buy.

Glass over body, unless you already have mid-tier or top-tier glass.

Full frame is just a tool for specific reasons. It's not magical and super better.
APS-C is also just a tool for specific reasons. It's not just for the "budget" people.

Consider what autofocus system you need for what YOU actually shoot. Not what someone else does.

Consider what kind of ISO performance YOU need for what you actually shoot. Not what someone else says you should have.

Consider what level of control of depth of field you need for what you actually shoot, on the thinnest side (it's pointless and equal on the infinite side).

I would highly, highly suggest you use whatever money you would burn on magical full frame, on some speedlites and some GOOD lenses and a filter or two. You'll get way more out of this than just getting another camera that produces the same image you're telling your current camera to.

And lastly, if you're hesitating getting full frame because you've read a lot and think it sounds great, but you're not biting due to cost and due to lack of experience, it's because of just that... with more photography experience you'll know if you need full frame or not, or whether it's just another tool for something you do or will do.

(I shoot full frame & APS-C near equally, they're different tools for different tasks)

Post some samples of your BEST work here, that you think would have been BETTER had you been shooting a full frame camera.

Very best,


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omer
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Aug 27, 2014 18:22 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #9

Buy glass
Until you are sure you really need ff
You can get pro pictures with crop body if you can
Imagine
Compose
Expose
Post process
But if you donot master the above no ff will make you a pro
I for one still learning the above


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AlanU
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Aug 27, 2014 18:26 |  #10

5D2 has a max shutter speed of 1/8000. For my application I like that flexibility. 6d is 1/4000 max shutter speed. You will get spoiled with ff. A camera is a tool so select your tool for your application.


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paddler4
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Aug 27, 2014 18:38 |  #11

Would it be smarter for me to work my bum off as intended and just invest it in lenses and drop this dream of owning a FF after just a year and a bit?

Yes. +1 what Team Speed and MalVeaux wrote.

The better image quality, richer colors, wider field of view, all of that is really tempting

There is no "wider field of view." There is a wider field of view for any given focal length. If you want a wider field of view, just buy a shorter lens.

Richer colors? I own both formats, and I don't even give this a thought when choosing which of my cameras to pick up. Minor tweaks in postprocessing are way more important in this respect than sensor size.

Better image quality? Yes, all other things being equal, a FF will give you better image quality than a crop of the same sensor generation. Will you notice it? That all depends. If you don't shoot a lot in low light or print very large, probably not. Except for low-light work, you generally won't notice it when displaying on the web because that is such a low-resolution medium. I doubt you would be able to tell which of my shots were with which format. And you will often get more of an image-quality boost from better glass

And there are downsides: cost, weight, and the need to haul around longer, heavier, more expensive lenses to achieve the same field of view or reach (the other side of your wide field of view issue). And for certain uses--1:1 macro and some wildlife photography--a crop sensor is actually superior in some ways.


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johnf3f
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Aug 27, 2014 18:38 |  #12

I would also recommend good glass before changing your camera body. However I would suggest that the lenses be bought with full frame coverage in mind (not EFS lenses - good though they are).
I cannot understand the never ending debate as to whether crop or full frame sensors are better or not. I just simply used/bought different cameras and the larger sensors give me better results. Though I would still say the lens is more important!
Much of my photography is small birds/wildlife so I am continually focal length challenged yet I still prefer full frame sensors due to the better results that they give.


Life is for living, cameras are to capture it (one day I will learn how!).

  
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Sin ­ City ­ Stan
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Aug 27, 2014 21:17 |  #13

I would rent some glass and see if that 1100 will now scratch that itch. If it doesn't take a serious look at the 6D


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Dan ­ Marchant
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Aug 27, 2014 22:14 |  #14

OP, afraid I am going to echo all the other comments about sticking with crop and getting glass. A good range of good glass and decent post processing will make more difference. Buying into Full Frame without a good set of glass wont.


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Charlie
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Aug 28, 2014 01:08 |  #15

I'de skip right to FF. You know what it offers, and grabbing more lenses for crop just means you'll end up selling it later.

Consider this, grabbing more glass, your just doing a single upgrade at once, but you go FF, your 50, 35, and 135 all get upgraded. Save money by going FF now, rather than build up a crop kit, then selling it off again later.


Sony A7riii/A9 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - SY 24/2.8 - FE 28/2 - FE 35/2.8 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8 - Tamron 17-28/2.8 - 28-75/2.8 RXD, 70-200/2.8 VC

  
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The path of the full frame
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