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Thread started 31 Aug 2014 (Sunday) 19:03
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Getting WB right

 
FlyingPete
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Aug 31, 2014 19:03 |  #1

Hi All,
I am having colour fun. I am finding that auto-WB can produce cold dull images on cloudy days, hence why I shoot in RAW.

Problem I am having is I am not convinced that the WB I am getting is right, if I set to cloudy in DPP, or manually select off a white object such as a sign I get a result that too me seems a bit too yellow (especially greens).

Is this an accurate representation, if not what is the best way to fix short of carrying a neutral grey card (I am actually thinking of doing this, and not convinced it will work either).

Example below, this image WB was set off a white sign, all the images were in the same lighting, heavily overcast, manual WB of cloudy gives similar result:

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LV ­ Moose
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Aug 31, 2014 19:33 |  #2

FlyingPete wrote in post #17128468 (external link)
....Problem I am having is I am not convinced that the WB I am getting is right, if I set to cloudy in DPP, or manually select off a white object such as a sign I get a result that too me seems a bit too yellow (especially greens).

You're not alone. Setting DPP to Cloudy or Shade always makes my images too yellow. I use mainly LR now, but either way, in shots using natural light I usually start with Daylight or Auto WB, and adjust the temp from there.


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sapearl
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Aug 31, 2014 19:39 |  #3

is your monitor calibrated Pete? If you have an accurate screen why not adjust the color temp slider to suit your taste. I sometimes have the same issues outdoors so I either eyedropper a white or neutral gray area or adjust the temp until it visually pleases me.


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Aug 31, 2014 21:31 |  #4

FlyingPete wrote in post #17128468 (external link)
Example below, this image WB was set off a white sign, all the images were in the same lighting, heavily overcast, manual WB of cloudy gives similar result:
QUOTED IMAGE

This image looks good to me (except for the blown-out highlights on some of the ducks' backs, but that may be because of POTN's extremely limited file-size-upload-limits).
Are you saying this image is too yellow or that it was too yellow and now you've adjusted it?


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FlyingPete
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Aug 31, 2014 22:23 |  #5

sapearl wrote in post #17128502 (external link)
is your monitor calibrated Pete? If you have an accurate screen why not adjust the color temp slider to suit your taste. I sometimes have the same issues outdoors so I either eyedropper a white or neutral gray area or adjust the temp until it visually pleases me.

Yes, processed these on my MBPro, calibrated with a ColorMuki. I also mainly use the eyedropper trick, there is usually something in the batch of photos to set from. Works well on sunny days, seems to be an issue on cloudy days.

PhotoMatte wrote in post #17128645 (external link)
This image looks good to me (except for the blown-out highlights on some of the ducks' backs, but that may be because of POTN's extremely limited file-size-upload-limits).
Are you saying this image is too yellow or that it was too yellow and now you've adjusted it?

This shot is not adjusted, the greenery seems a bit yellow to me vs other shots, highlights probably blown, will check RAW when I get home.

Here are another couple of shots, the first has that yellowish look, the second looks a bit more right but taken through polariser on a sunny day, huge difference in greens:

IMAGE: http://cdn.morguefile.com/imageData/public/files/f/flyingpete/preview/fldr_2008_11_02/file000965531696.jpg

IMAGE: http://cdn.morguefile.com/imageData/public/files/f/flyingpete/preview/fldr_2010_06_15/file8531276597282.jpg

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Redcrown
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Aug 31, 2014 23:37 |  #6

Very few man made things that appear neutral to the human eye (black, white, gray) are really, truly neutral. Fishing around an image for what you think is neutral to set white balance usually leads to errors.

Try this fun experiment. Run around the house and gather up a bunch of things you think are neutral. White shirts, black jackets, porcelin cups, printer paper, coffee filters, etc. The more the merrier. Include a true white balance card if you have one. Take them outside, pile them up in the shade, and shoot a few raw frames at different bracketed exposures. Move them into the sun and repeat.

Load the shots in your raw converter and click around with the white balance dropper. Try the default cloudy, shade, daylight settings too. It should be a good lesson.

Many man made white things, especially clothing, have "optical brighteners" added. The optical brighteners are actually blue. When you white balance on them, the software takes the blue out by adding yellow. I suspect that's what happened with your duck shot. The white sign you used was actually a bit blue.

Last week I photographed one of the grandkids in our yard. High noon on a sunny day with big clouds coming and going. Used a gray card for each location. Within 1/2 hour, and at three locations within 50 feet, the white balance varied from 5200k to 7400k. But a good part of that was probably due to color casts from green grass, trees, "gray" house siding which is really yellow.

Point being, if the "white" sign is away from any strong color cast but the subject is standing on yellow gravel, the white balance will be off.




  
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Sep 01, 2014 07:40 |  #7

The picking colours up from the surroundings is one of the big problems I have at airshows. Top side of the aircraft will be fine. The bottom half will pick up the tone of the ground undreneath. Last show I shot was a grass strip. I have ended up with the yellow sat slider at -75 and the green at -50 to compenstate for it in LR. I really wish the full eight channels of HSL were avilable on the local brush. Although it is possible to "paint" back the colours where you need them with careful use of the Saturation slider using a local brush. The problem is that normally we filter the reflected colour out when actually viewing the subject in real life.

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kirkt
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Sep 01, 2014 10:46 |  #8

I have been experimenting with WB for a while now, shooting raw. When you shoot, for example, in tungsten light and you take a reference image with a neutral target, the inclination is to click-WB on that target and then propagate that WB setting to all of the other images in the set that were shot in the same lighting. The idea is that this technique will neutralize the lighting color temp and neutrals will be neutral.

The essential question to consider is, why? When you actually look around a scene that is lit by tungsten light, in this example, neutral objects do not appear literally neutral. We know they ARE neutral and our brains understand this, but the object's appearance, visually, is not one of perfect neutrality. The neutral object takes on the color of the light incident upon it, including the direct light, the ambient diffuse light and any color bleed and reflection falling on it as well.

My current practice follows this logic.... Because we have evolved over many many years of seeing the world in natural daylight (as opposed to the relatively modern concept of artificial lighting) our visual systems are tuned to daylight. Therefore, the best starting point for a "natural" WB to a digital image that has no point of reference, is daylight WB. Chose one - 5500°K, 0 tint, or whatever you find works. This is what I set my camera to, regardless of the scene. You can tune the result in raw conversion, but this technique will capture the actual lighting of the scene (you can always chose to reject that rendition in raw conversion for whatever reason) in the most "natural" way that we are accustomed to seeing light and color - that is, with daylight as the "reference" lighting.

As soon as you start click-WB'ing on "something" in your scene, you bias the interpretation of the scene to the object's surface color and whatever light is falling on that object, as well as whatever artifacts in the image are present in the pixels that comprise that object (chroma noise, etc.). We have been led to believe that neutral targets and color checkers are magical tools that will make the image "correct" when, in my opinion, they tend to sterilize the image.

Try an experiment - put your camera in Daylight WB and shoot in a variety of lighting conditions with a gray reference placed in each scene. Compare the daylight (as shot) rendering to the click-WB rendering in each scene and judge for yourself which is a better rendition of the scene. I often find that the "best" result is a WB that is about half way between daylight and the click-WB color temp.

Of course there is a time and place for getting WB "correct" in terms of literal color interpretation, but I would guess those times are far from as frequent as white balance target suppliers would have you believe. Even in wedding shots, for example, where a bride's white dress is the focal point of an image, the dress does not necessarily need to be literal white, especially if the scene is light by candlelight, dance floor lighting, tungsten lighting, etc. If you capture with Daylight WB you can always dial the effect back, but if you shoot with a custom WB to sterilize the neutrals in your scene, then you have no recording of the actual lighting conditions that were present when you shot - you then have to make them up by sliding sliders.

Essentially, this technique assumes that Daylight is a "universal" white balance reference, based on how our visual systems have evolved. We visually compare everything to daylight. Tungsten is "warmer" than daylight and cloudy scenes are "cooler" than daylight.

With respect to the tint of trees, remember that when shooting in a tree-filled scene, light is filtering through and reflecting off of the canopy of the trees - this colors the light falling incident on the scene. It is like having a green-yellow filter on the lighting. It is your choice as to whether you want to keep or reject that light in your image. This scan be a particularly vexing problem when, as one often finds suggested on the internet, one shoots in "open shade" and chooses the canopy of a leafy tree as the source of shade. Skin tones are particularly difficult to get right with the introduction of green into the natural yellow of skin.

kirk


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chauncey
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Sep 02, 2014 10:00 as a reply to  @ kirkt's post |  #9

I am a huge fan of these folks...http://www.xrite.com/ (external link)
Makes the whole correct color thing a cakewalk in the park. ;)


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FlyingPete
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Sep 02, 2014 14:50 |  #10

chauncey wrote in post #17131294 (external link)
I am a huge fan of these folks...http://www.xrite.com/ (external link)
Makes the whole correct color thing a cakewalk in the park. ;)

Which product? I already have a ColorMunki, the one that can calibrate printers and screens.


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chauncey
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Sep 02, 2014 15:59 as a reply to  @ FlyingPete's post |  #11

The passport portion along with the importation of color profiles as DNG into LR.


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Getting WB right
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